[wdhille]

OK, I'm not known for my patience.... But, it's been over three years since I put my deposit down and ordered an R1T with the max battery pack. One of my buds gave in and took delivery of an R1T with the "large" battery pack several months ago. While I don't intend to drive 400 miles with my truck, I will be pulling a trailer and I want the extra capacity for towing. (I tow less than 100 miles round trip normally, usually less than 50 miles round trip. So I think it makes sense that I get the max battery pack.

The initial "wait" until summer of 2023 was hard to take, but now it looks like it is at least 18 months away. I'm starting to need a new vehicle soon... Our newest ride is a 13 years old now.... At while it doesn't have an eight track player, but it does have a CD player....

Back to my initial post about my paranoia... Am I the only one thinking Rivian knows they will lose money on the max battery packs, so in order to cut their losses they want people to buy the "large" battery pack.... Right now my cost for the max battery pack is $10k... That's a lot of something.... But if I ordered it today it would be $16k.... $6k higher for the max battery pack.....

Am I the only one starting to think something unethical is gong on here??

 

[Igotnuttin]

Well, I'm in the same boat. I sure hope you're paranoia is unfounded but I'll admit that I've had those same cynical thoughts. My current vehicle is not quite as long in the tooth as yours (it's got a CD player) but I'm still eager to get the R1T.

 

[ColeAK]

I don’t think unethical by Rivian, I think they over promised, I do think it will be a while…. I’d say at least 2 years. I also tow, a ~7k camper and put in 7-10k miles a summer, I need to be able to go 150-200 miles with no charging infrastructure. For me I feel like by the time a max pack makes it to market there will be a lot more options so I canceled my reservation and bought $1k in RIVN at ~$22 a share.

All that said I don’t need a vehicle. If I needed a vehicle (out of necessity) to replace my current truck tomorrow, don’t know what I would do. Probably still wouldn’t get large pack though.

 

[EaglesPDX]

I think that the auxiliary battery biz is going to be the answer. Optima has been posting about their aux battery products. Easy to see their aux battery trailer being integrated into towed trailers. Several "caravan" mfgs in EU offer trailers with battery and motors on the wheels so the trailer becomes zero load and the EV's range goes back to baseline while towing.

The MaxPack adds about 75 miles of range which then gets cut by 50% by towing, 200 miles of range. A zero load trailer would give a 300 mile range R1T its original range of 300. Same for aux battery that would fit in the wheel well or in the bed. Not carrying all the extra weight around when not trailering would increase the efficiency of regular driving.

 

[ColeAK]

I think that the auxiliary battery biz is going to be the answer. Optima has been posting about their aux battery products. Easy to see their aux battery trailer being integrated into towed trailers. Several "caravan" mfgs in EU offer trailers with battery and motors on the wheels so the trailer becomes zero load and the EV's range goes back to baseline while towing.

The MaxPack adds about 75 miles of range which then gets cut by 50% by towing, 200 miles of range. A zero load trailer would give a 300 mile range R1T its original range of 300. Same for aux battery that would fit in the wheel well or in the bed. Not carrying all the extra weight around when not trailering would increase the efficiency of regular driving.

For zero load trailers you are talking $$$$$$$ and are years off. I’m saying no way under $80k for one in the next 5 years. And they will be heavy. I read that the Airstream with motors and a 100 kWh battery is projected to be >$180k.

and for extra bed batterie how are people going to move them? To add an extra 50% to a Rivian you are talking ~1400 lbs of battery. Even people talking about 10kwh “jerry can batteries” will be ~250 lbs, to get an extra 15-20 miles not towing.

 

[wdhille]

A lot of good points. I guess a little more transparency on behalf of Rivian might help. To date they really have not done much as far as communicating and managing expectations. With that said, I still want an R1T and I still believe the Rivian is the best option. Regarding towing, my trailer weighs 2,000 pounds, and I routinely carry 8,000 pounds on it. But.... only for 40-50 miles a day.

 

[ColeAK]

A lot of good points. I guess a little more transparency on behalf of Rivian might help. To date they really have not done much as far as communicating and managing expectations. With that said, I still want an R1T and I still believe the Rivian is the best option. Regarding towing, my trailer weighs 2,000 pounds, and I routinely carry 8,000 pounds on it. But.... only for 40-50 miles a day. View attachment 9110

If you just tow a heavy flat trailer with things in the picture like logs you will be fine with the current battery. The range killer when towing is not weight but aerodynamic drag from things like campers and large boats.

 

[EaglesPDX]

For zero load trailers you are talking $$$$$$$ and are years off. I’m saying no way under $80k for one in the next 5 years. And they will be heavy. I read that the Airstream with motors and a 100 kWh battery is projected to be >$180k.

and for extra bed batterie how are people going to move them? To add an extra 50% to a Rivian you are talking ~1400 lbs of battery. Even people talking about 10kwh “jerry can batteries” will be ~250 lbs, to get an extra 15-20 miles not towing.

982 kg is listed as battery weight so one could match extra range needed to weight. Having battery in the trailer would be most efficient. Having motors on the trailer to make it zero load would give one a 310 range with regular battery which is more than one would get towing with the max pack.

The tech to do this on trailer is easy.

Biggest issue Is getting aux battery to be able to charge the battery while moving.

 

[somewhatdamaged81]

I am in a very similar situation and share the same concerns. I want the max pack to travel out west for big game hunting and national park visits.

 

[ColeAK]

982 kg is listed as battery weight so one could match extra range needed to weight. Having battery in the trailer would be most efficient. Having motors on the trailer to make it zero load would give one a 310 range with regular battery which is more than one would get towing with the max pack.

The tech to do this on trailer is easy.

Biggest issue Is getting aux battery to be able to charge the battery while moving.

So just the batteries will be ~2100 lbs. add a motor or 2, beefier hubs/axles/frame/brakes/…. And will add >3-4K lbs extra weight to the trailer. More then doubling the weight of small trailers. And adding who knows to the trailer cost, $30-50k+?

 

[=0=maxr1t=0=]

Yes. You're paranoid. And it isn't because I have a reservation and therefor biased. It's because of the following evidence:

• High level Rivian officers, including RJ, have repeatedly said they are still going to make it.
• Look at competition, some in production, some pending. Rivian will be uncompetitive if they do not offer a 400+ mile version.
• It is delayed due to order volumes and production prioritization/optimization. There are more orders for Large Pack and Dual Motor because [respectively] consumers typically don't want long delivery waits, they order what they can get soonest, and lower price point of DM make it affordable to more people.

 

[Angus]

I don't think you are paranoid at all. With the way their timeliness has been on other promises, I would not expect it next year. I have no inside knowledge, or anything, but they have not been on time on anything. I mean, my initial delivery date for my R1S was June of 2021, then winter of 2021, then May-June of 2022, now April - June of 2023.

 

[EaglesPDX]

So just the batteries will be ~2100 lbs. add a motor or 2, beefier hubs/axles/frame/brakes/…. And will add >3-4K lbs extra weight to the trailer. More then doubling the weight of small trailers. And adding who knows to the trailer cost, $30-50k+?

The extra battery placed in the truck would add the same weight as the larger max pack adds providing the same extra miles, no?

 

[ColeAK]

The extra battery placed in the truck would add the same weight as the larger max pack adds providing the same extra miles, no?

The trailer in question claims a 110 kWh battery. I haven’t seen Rivian release how big the max pack will be but given their range claims only about ~40 kWh larger than the current one.

 

[=0=maxr1t=0=]

The trailer in question claims a 110 kWh battery. I haven’t seen Rivian release how big the max pack will be but given their range claims only about ~40 kWh larger than the current one.

Max Pack has always been listed as 180 kWh, until recently when a CS rep wouldn't say—was either being coy about change underway, or isn't well informed.

 

[EaglesPDX]

The trailer in question claims a 110 kWh battery.

But putting an aux battery in the truck bed that matched the 40kW and extra weight of the max pack would provide the same range as the max pack. Put it in when you need. Put it in the garage when you don't, use it for home backup.

Since the aux battery is the same kW and wt of the extra weight of the max pack, it should have the same range.

Aux battery since it adds the same size and weight the max pack adds should cost about the same as the max pack.

What you'd put in motorized trailer would depend on the size of the trailer and intentions but by zeroing out the load of the trailer, one would get 310 miles range vs. 50% of max pack range when towing about 200 miles.

 

[O. horridus]

But putting an aux battery in the truck bed that matched the 40kW and extra weight of the max pack would provide the same range as the max pack. Put it in when you need. Put it in the garage when you don't, use it for home backup.

At ~700lbs, it's a little heavy to be just putting it in the bed or taking it out on a whim. That and it will probably take up most of the bed. And at a cost of somewhere between $500-$1k per kWh, that's roughly $20,000 to $40,000. Makes the Max Pack sound real good at $10k. I don't see this as a very practical solution.

 

[EaglesPDX]

$20,000 to $40,000

Aux battery the same cells/wt of the difference that MaxPack adds should be the same price and wt as the MaxPack adder Rivian charges.

 

[O. horridus]

Here are some examples of a portable 40kWh "aux battery" system:

3x Tesla Powerwall (13.5kWh @$11.5k each @250lbs each) = $34,500 / 750lbs
or
11x EcoFlow Delta Pro (3.6kWh @$3500 each on sale @100lbs each) = $38,500 / 1,100lbs
or
20x Jackery Explorer Pro (2kWh @$2,000 each @43lbs each) = $40,000 / 860lbs
or
20x Bluetti AC200MAX (2kWh @ $1600 each on sale @62lbs each) = $32,000 / 1,240lbs

Only the first can be properly daisychained into acting as a single ~40kWh pack.

I stand by my rough estimate of $20k-$40k for a "portable" source of power that you can put in the bed, because I did this research BEFORE I posted. If you want to contradict, maybe provide some evidence of your own.

Also, Economics 101, the COST to produce an item is not the same as the PRICE an item is sold at. In many cases they're not even related. Price is what people will pay for something, and the numbers above show that my estimate of $20k-$40k was based on market prices. Cost is how much you spend to produce that thing, which for most things has very little to do with the price that thing is sold at. Rivian is selling the Max Pack at $10k (and it is roughly 700lbs extra, like I said). This PRICE is likely less than it currently COSTS Rivian to make the Max Pack, and it is certainly far less than the price of one of the "portable" solutions above.

 

[EaglesPDX]

This PRICE is likely less than it currently COSTS Rivian to make the Max Pack

Typically options on cars are high profit items.

Current cost per kWh for EV batteries is $132.

According to Bloomberg New Energy Finance's (BNEF) annual battery price survey, lithium-ion battery pack prices averaged $132 per kilowatt hour in 2021—down from $140 per kilowatt hour in 2020. Inside each electric vehicle battery pack are multiple interconnected modules made up of tens to hundreds of rechargeable Lithium-ion cells.