[R1SBoater]

This is a heretical comment that will likely get me burned at the stake in this group...but in light of the possible tax changes, Rivian's production schedule and some issues with the infotainment features (at least based on the limited information available to date), I'm all the sudden very interested in the upcoming Grand Cherokee 4xe. Before you start flaming me, let me attempt to justify. I use my vehicle for two things and I can only afford a single vehicle to serve both needs (my wife has her own car and we don't have space or budget for a "spare" car sitting around):
1. commuting about 15 miles round trip daily to and from work, and
2. driving hundreds of miles through the mountains with gear, kid and dogs to ski, raft (pulling a trailer), camp, hike, off-road and generally adventure in the mountain west.

My interest in the R1S is driven primarily by my guilt over driving an over-powered ICE for use case #1, commuting to and from work. In addition, my office offers free electric vehicle charging, and free "gas" is obviously attractive. Secondarily I love the R1S's looks and supposed capabilities, but have become worried that it really won't serve use case #2 very well. CO winters in the mountains are very cold and very hilly; skiing requires constant interaction with both. Pulling a trailer up the mountains, even in the summer, seems likely to absolutely kill usable range and most rafting locations are fairly remote where charging infrastructure is non-existent or in its infancy. Therefore I must have the R1S max pack for it to even be feasible, and still not sure the vehicle would really do what I need. Further, as many have noted, the R1S with max pack probably won't be available for several more years unless things change pretty dramatically in the coming months. Not sure I can justify driving my current ICE for that long, and even if I did, not sure the R1S would really satisfy all of my use cases. And now the R1S probably won't qualify for tax incentive after this year either...ugh!

The GC 4xe, on the other hand, will completely satisfy use case #1 while still giving me ability and flexibility with regard to use case #2, and would still qualify for the tax credit under the proposed new rules. I could easily get to and from work and do other around town errands in the 4xe's pure electric mode, and would be able to take advantage of the "free gas" on offer at my office. Plus I wouldn't have any more guilt about firing up my hulking V-8 every morning. Will it be as fast, fun, unique or "cool," as the R1S...no, of course not, but I generally try to sideline those thoughts when making $50-$90k financial decisions. Just a lot of factors beginning to add up against Rivian, which is sad because in concept, I really love this vehicle. Please someone convince me I'm wrong and I should hold out for the R1S...

 

[NY_Rob]

IMO, and that's just what it is... a paltry 20mi electric range is the show stopper for me. I lived with a Plug-in-Prius that had a 10mi electric range and a Gen 1 Volt that had a 40mi electric range. The difference between the Prius and the Volt was huge, the Volt actually got me to work and back home in all electric mode vs. the Prius that only covered 1/4 of the commute. When I traded in the Volt it had 40K electric an under 5K ICE miles on it.

What I'm getting at, is that 20mi electric range just seems insufficient for almost anything other than running to get take-out on weekends. Everything else will require burning gas. Also, keep in mind, the plug-in hybrid vehicles are the most complicated vehicles on the road because they have a full ICE system and a full EV system onboard. Lots of parts to break.... Chevy said the Volt was the most complex vehicle they ever built.

 

[R1SBoater]

What I'm getting at, is that 20mi electric range just seems insufficient for almost anything other than running to get take-out on weekends. Everything else will require burning gas. Also, keep in mind, the plug-in hybrid vehicles are the most complicated vehicles on the road because they have a full ICE system and a full EV system onboard. Lots of parts to break.... Chevy said the Volt was the most complex vehicle they ever built.

Good points all around, Rob. That said, 20 miles of effective range (the 4xe is supposedly rated at 26), or even 15, would be more than enough to get me too and from the office, my commute isn't very far and is essentially flat. And I can charge on both ends if needed, including for free at the office. And of course, even if I do burn some gas when running errands for instance, it would still be significantly less than my current vehicle is sucking down.

The complexity point is a very good one I'll have to think about. Trusting Stellantis to engineer and deliver a quality vehicle of that complexity is probably not a brilliant idea...but then again trusting a brand new automaker with no history of mass manufacturing to deliver a quality product also carries a fair amount of risk... My bigger concern is really my other use case, for which I'm not sure any BEV currently on the market or coming in the next couple of years is really appropriate, so I'm thinking of a plug-in hybrid as a possible bridge vehicle. But obviously not a "silver bullet" solution, as you point out. Thanks for your thoughts!

 

[Yossarian]

I'm in a somewhat similar situation to you @R1SBoater. In my case, it's driving to ski during the winter (from the Philly area to the Wasatch annually, with occasional excursions to NE. In the summer, it's hauling a teardrop camper and a kayak once in a while. No commute to work anymore, but the typical shopping excursions. And with no kids around anymore, we've fine with one car. Like you, I'd prefer to go EV to be at least a little more environmentally responsible. I'd also love to get to FSD both for the long highway trips and for trips to the city. I also need the maximum range possible for the trailer and for the ski trips. It's been mighty cold on some of our excursions - for a few days one week in the Spanish Peaks (Big Sky) the temp never got about zero F and was -35F/C some mornings. Suspect that even with the Max battery temps like that will mean very short drives between charging.

I think that an R1T or S in the Max config will work however, and am willing to take the chance. I don't expect to take delivery of either until at least 2023 for an R1T and 2024 for an R1S (I have an R1T Max configured presently but plan to change to the S once Rivian provides that ability, said to be early 2022). I was initially annoyed by the wait time - though I've only had a pre-order in place for about 18 months - but now see it as a positive. For one, it will allow time for the charging network to be built out, something that appears to happening at a faster than expected pace. For another, it will allow time for real-world feedback and evaluation of Rivian performance, so I'll have a better idea of range when hauling and in adverse weather. finally, it should allow some time for Rivian to fine-tune production and address any quality issues, hopefully meaning that I will not be beta testing an $80k vehicle.

If the build out of the charging network stalls, or if Rivian performance is signficantly below expectations or if vehicle quality is at Tesla level, I will cancel my order. The Rivian replacement may be another BEV (Hyndai is making great inroads into EV's - a BEV Pallisade/Teluride type vehicle may be available by 2024) but as much as I prefer this not to be the case, another ICE vehicle could be the better alternative..

 

[R1SBoater]

I think that an R1T or S in the Max config will work however, and am willing to take the chance. I don't expect to take delivery of either until at least 2023 for an R1T and 2024 for an R1S (I have an R1T Max configured presently but plan to change to the S once Rivian provides that ability, said to be early 2022). I was initially annoyed by the wait time - though I've only had a pre-order in place for about 18 months - but now see it as a positive. For one, it will allow time for the charging network to be built out, something that appears to happening at a faster than expected pace. For another, it will allow time for real-world feedback and evaluation of Rivian performance, so I'll have a better idea of range when hauling and in adverse weather. finally, it should allow some time for Rivian to fine-tune production and address any quality issues, hopefully meaning that I will not be beta testing an $80k vehicle.

If the build out of the charging network stalls, or if Rivian performance is signficantly below expectations or if vehicle quality is at Tesla level, I will cancel my order. The Rivian replacement may be another BEV (Hyndai is making great inroads into EV's - a BEV Pallisade/Teluride type vehicle may be available by 2024) but as much as I prefer this not to be the case, another ICE vehicle could be the better alternative..

Thanks for your thoughts, Yossarian. I totally agree on the timing points. As anxious as I am about the climate crisis, I'm trying to remind myself to be patient, focus on other things I can do to "move the needle" (finally got solar on my new house about a year ago), and see how things play out for Rivian, the BEV market generally and the charging infrastructure between now and whenever I would be able to actually buy a R1S max pack (I'm at the back of the line; been following Rivian for years but only took the plunge and put down my $1K about a month ago). These damn tax law changes are impacting my thinking, however. I think the 4xe will qualify for most of the new credits and Jeeps hold their value relatively well here in CO, particularly the off-road model I would purchase (Trail Hawk trim). Might still give one a shot for a few years as a bridge to a Rivian or whatever BEV suits my needs best come 2024...

 

[RayzorBEV]

Yes. I even built and priced a top end version. Then came the dealership encounter...Which reminds why I like buying directly from the manufacturer and which is also why I'm steering away from the F150 Lighting...until Ford let me skip the wonderful dealership experience...

 

[R1SBoater]

Yes. I even built and priced a top end version. Then came the dealership encounter...Which reminds why I like buying directly from the manufacturer and which is also why I'm steering away from the F150 Lighting...until Ford let me skip the wonderful dealership experience...

Haha, fair point. Skipping the dealership experience is definitely one of the things keeping me interested in Rivian. Out of curiosity, where were you able to actually price out a GC 4xe? As far as I can tell the main Jeep website doesn't have any definitive pricing information on it yet. Was a dealer able to actually quote you a price on one?

 

[RayzorBEV]

Haha, fair point. Skipping the dealership experience is definitely one of the things keeping me interested in Rivian. Out of curiosity, where were you able to actually price out a GC 4xe? As far as I can tell the main Jeep website doesn't have any definitive pricing information on it yet. Was a dealer able to actually quote you a price on one?

I'm in far west Texas done via a local dealership

 

[thesonofgray]

This is a heretical comment that will likely get me burned at the stake in this group...but in light of the possible tax changes, Rivian's production schedule and some issues with the infotainment features (at least based on the limited information available to date), I'm all the sudden very interested in the upcoming Grand Cherokee 4xe. Before you start flaming me, let me attempt to justify. I use my vehicle for two things and I can only afford a single vehicle to serve both needs (my wife has her own car and we don't have space or budget for a "spare" car sitting around):
1. commuting about 15 miles round trip daily to and from work, and
2. driving hundreds of miles through the mountains with gear, kid and dogs to ski, raft (pulling a trailer), camp, hike, off-road and generally adventure in the mountain west.

I'm in a nearly identical position - generally short commute to work, but we also just bought an Airstream Basecamp 20X that needs to be towed for long weekends or even 15+ day trips. My R1S pre-order was driven more by vanity than anything else. I just thought (and still think) the Rivian looks amazing - inside and out. And with the future being electric, why not embrace the future? The benefits to the environment from ditching a gas guzzler is icing on the glacier white cake.

But with the Basecamp on the way and my XC90 tow rating a bit less than ideal, I just put in an order for the 2022 Jeep Grand Cherokee L Overland V8 4x4. Nearly the same damn price as the R1S (when did Jeeps get so expensive??), but I'll at least have a confident capable vehicle when we are ready to feed our wanderlust.

I'm keeping the R1S pre-order for now. I might possibly switch to the max battery pack when they reach out to confirm the configuration to give myself a bit more time to see if the switch to a fully electric tow vehicle is truly feasible at this point in EV evolution. I like Jeeps but damn it will be hard to pass up that R1S sexiness when the decision time comes.

 

[N8213]

I’ve got a wrangler 4xe currently. Similar usage- drop off and pick up my son twice a day for a 20 mile round trip, L2 charger in the garage so it’s fully charged for the afternoon run. Occasional long trips mainly on gas. The unexpected part was that to stay in electric you have to be very frugal with the pedal, and economy on gas only is atrocious.

 

[RayzorBEV]

Yes, I seriously considered it until I was reminded how the dealership and service department love to take full advantage of us. Also, Jeep's notorious reliability, plus it's under foreign ownership. Rivian R1T checked most of my boxes and it is an American company built here in USA!

 

[tgo10000]

yeah i thought it about it. i was interested in the rav 4 prime too but was super difficult to get and I decided to go full EV last year as I realized except for a couple of trips per year I don’t really need the range of PHEV. I’m just not interested in the dealership experience anymore and the last two dealers i had were relatively tolerable.

 

[John Corringer]

Biggest thing is I would stop the guilt immediately. There is no reason to feel any sort of way over what you drive, no matter what that is. Either electric fits your use case, or it doesn't. As electric gets better more and more people will wind up switching because it starts fitting their use case. If your gas car lasts until then my thoughts would be to go full BEV when full BEV works for your lifestyle.

Also you need to keep in mind that even if you have pre hike pricing you're still talking about an 80K dollar vehicle for the R1S and you could easily get a cheap V8 for pulling on the weekends AND a used BEV for your commute if that's what works best for you. I personally wouldn't touch an EV hybrid because jack of all trades is the master of none. They really don't do anything exceptionally well. They have weak performance, are really complicated and aren't really that much more fuel efficient over an ICE vehicle because their battery only range is tiny. Just get a regular ICE hybrid if that's the way you're going to go like the Ecoboost hybrid as the efficiency is going to be in the same ballpark and you'll save a few bucks.

 

[WorldComposting]

I have thought about this but one thing to think about is resale value. Jeep GC don't hold up like the Wrangler does in the secondary market and I can't imagine a the plug-in-hybrid model will do much better especially as more fully electric vehicles are released. With the pricing of the GC being at least 60K it made the choice for me pretty easy.

Saying that you really need to look at your own needs. It looks like it might fit them well if you really only drive 20 miles before plugging in again. Just remember you might take a much larger hit in resale which seems weird to think about but with the vehicles being so expensive it can be a $20-40K difference when you decide to exchange the vehicles in.

FYI why I do look at resale is after I purchased a new 2005 Xterra after 13 years and 140K miles I went to purchase a new vehicle and it was only worth $2,500. If I had purchased the 4Runner I would have spend another 5K on it new but it would have been worth close to $15,000 at trade in with similar mileage. The 5K lower price up front cost me 1015 on the back end.

Just something to think about!

 

[Crownroyal]

I had a Wrangler 4xe.. worst purchase i've ever made. Was stranded when the Jeep wouldn't start. During winters, it would consistently go into FORM mode (Fuel and Oil Refresh Mode). Engine wouldn't get hot enough in winter to get it out of this mode.. so electric mode was very sketchy. Also if the weather is ever under 11 degrees (CO here) then it would never go into electric mode.

Also research how PHEV sales are declining... people are either going pure electric or staying with gas.

 

[tgo10000]

I was looking for plug in hybrid before I got a Mach E, but couldn’t find one and wasn’t interested over msrp and it was best thing that could have happened to go all electric.

 

[BlackH20]

View attachment 3824

This is a heretical comment that will likely get me burned at the stake in this group...but in light of the possible tax changes, Rivian's production schedule and some issues with the infotainment features (at least based on the limited information available to date), I'm all the sudden very interested in the upcoming Grand Cherokee 4xe. Before you start flaming me, let me attempt to justify. I use my vehicle for two things and I can only afford a single vehicle to serve both needs (my wife has her own car and we don't have space or budget for a "spare" car sitting around):
1. commuting about 15 miles round trip daily to and from work, and
2. driving hundreds of miles through the mountains with gear, kid and dogs to ski, raft (pulling a trailer), camp, hike, off-road and generally adventure in the mountain west.

My interest in the R1S is driven primarily by my guilt over driving an over-powered ICE for use case #1, commuting to and from work. In addition, my office offers free electric vehicle charging, and free "gas" is obviously attractive. Secondarily I love the R1S's looks and supposed capabilities, but have become worried that it really won't serve use case #2 very well. CO winters in the mountains are very cold and very hilly; skiing requires constant interaction with both. Pulling a trailer up the mountains, even in the summer, seems likely to absolutely kill usable range and most rafting locations are fairly remote where charging infrastructure is non-existent or in its infancy. Therefore I must have the R1S max pack for it to even be feasible, and still not sure the vehicle would really do what I need. Further, as many have noted, the R1S with max pack probably won't be available for several more years unless things change pretty dramatically in the coming months. Not sure I can justify driving my current ICE for that long, and even if I did, not sure the R1S would really satisfy all of my use cases. And now the R1S probably won't qualify for tax incentive after this year either...ugh!

The GC 4xe, on the other hand, will completely satisfy use case #1 while still giving me ability and flexibility with regard to use case #2, and would still qualify for the tax credit under the proposed new rules. I could easily get to and from work and do other around town errands in the 4xe's pure electric mode, and would be able to take advantage of the "free gas" on offer at my office. Plus I wouldn't have any more guilt about firing up my hulking V-8 every morning. Will it be as fast, fun, unique or "cool," as the R1S...no, of course not, but I generally try to sideline those thoughts when making $50-$90k financial decisions. Just a lot of factors beginning to add up against Rivian, which is sad because in concept, I really love this vehicle. Please someone convince me I'm wrong and I should hold out for the R1S...

Buy a used Expedition for $40K and put $50K into your kid's 529 education account (tax-deductible so you will pay no state taxes in Colorado). Go with some solar panels at your home. I wouldn't sweat the guilt trip. The Russian gas pipeline just leaked enough C02 into the globe to make up for about 5 years of EVs. Look at Fiat-Chrysler's dependable ranking, they are one of the worst, that Jeep will depreciate faster than any asset you ever bought.