[atebit]

@Yellow Buddy responded to a question about l winter tires I had in another thread; we decided to start a new thread on the topic.

I have the stock 21”s today and am concerned about the winter traction of “no season” tires. Here were the requirement questions he came up with:

Are you thinking about general traction and getting stuck?

Are you worried about general road holding and sliding off the road during a turn?

Are you worried about traveling at highway speeds and having the car wallow/potentially spin out at speed?
Are you worried about the ability to brake in a reasonable distance?

What type of roads do you drive on? Are the backroads small, shoulder less asphalt? Or are they gravel? Dirt road? Roads or trails?

In terms of general traction concerns, the highways in my area are usually well maintained during major storms, at least as much as is practicable. My larger concern are the narrow, hilly back roads around where I live. There’s no shoulder. My township has “A” dual-axle salt truck that also is “THE” plow truck, supported by a Fx50-ish pickup plow for cleanup. Sometimes, the plow doesn’t make it to us until it’s just pushing the slush off the road. And when it does come during a storm, it does a great job of plowing in our driveway apron.
We lived in NC for 10 years before coming back to PA. At the time I had a 4WD Tacoma with “no season” tires thh h at were appropriate for about 363 days of the year in NC. The first winter back in PA the Tacoma got stuck in a drift on one of the hilly roads.
Since that experience, I’ve always had a set of steel wheels with winter tires. But given the limited selection of wheels (and therefore tires) for the R1T, I was hoping someone with a ScD in Tireology could make some suggestions.

 

[EaglesPDX]

TireRack doesn't list an Winter tires for the R1S and the Pirelli that is made for the R1S is not Winter rated and doesn't have good ratings in regular driving. If Rivian is making an odd wheel size, it will be a problem getting tires going forward since the Rivians will be small production vehicle.

It looks like 175/50/21 would fit on the R1S. TireRack shows one Winter rated in that size the Dunlop WINTER MAXX SJ8 - SIZE: 275/50R21

Can the Rivian wheels be replaced with a standard size with more tire options, something that will fit an Xice?

 

[atebit]

Well that was the hot topic in the other thread & why I’m asking the tire scientists for advice. Hopefully there’s a way forward by this Thanksgiving, which is usually around the time I swap wheels.

 

[ColeAK]

I’m in Alaska. You are on the right track, dedicated winter tires make a huge difference In Winter, night and day. With EVs really good winter tires make even more a difference because they are Heavy and on winter roads winter is the enemy.

Nokian by far make the best winter tires. I’ve run them exclusively on all my vehicles for at least 12-15 years. And they are the #1 winter tire up here. A fair number of people up here run Blizzak and xice (Costco). I would stick with one of those 3.

 

[atebit]

Right now it seems we’re limited to the Pirelli tires if we stick with the stock wheel sizes. I read in the other thread that the truck uses the exotic 5x139 bolt pattern, which is apparently uncommon for 20” wheels.

So the key might be to come up with a wheel size that would work in the R1T at all ride heights, that also has some of the above tires available in that size.

 

[ColeAK]

Right now it seems we’re limited to the Pirelli tires if we stick with the stock wheel sizes. I read in the other thread that the truck uses the exotic 5x139 bolt pattern, which is apparently uncommon for 20” wheels.

So the key might be to come up with a wheel size that would work in the R1T at all ride heights, that also has some of the above tires available in that size.

5x139 is the pattern the Ram 1500 uses and the 5 lug f150 for years. So it is not an uncommon bolt pattern at all. Where the limited options come in is offset. Looks like most Ram rims are +20 to +22. The rivian is +48. So they are essentially using a Ram/older f150 hub pattern and Toyota offset. I wonder why they didn’t use 5x150? There is a ton of higher ET rims for Land cruiser, sequoia, tundra.

so at this point your options for extra rims are pretty much call Rivian. Or go with the largest +offset Ram rims you can find and run larger OD tires like 36-37” and likely do a ton of trimming.

There are good winter options in 285/50f20, Hakka 10, Hakka R3, Blizzak, XIce, well good options that is if they come high enough load rated, which I didn’t check. If it were me I’d get a 2nd set of OEM 20’s and run Nokian Hakka 10 or if you don’t want studs Hakka R3/R5 in 285/50r20.

 

[diehlryan]

Can you use a spacer to get to the right offset? I'm assuming no given the tremendous weight of the R1.

 

[ColeAK]

Can you use a spacer to get to the right offset? I'm assuming no given the tremendous weight of the R1.

No, a spacer would make it worse. Positive offset moves the rim center medial, that is inside the hub face. Spacers create more negative offset by moving the rim center out.

changing offset effects the entire suspension as it effects scrub radius. Going to less offset (negative, more distal) requires larger outer diameter tires and vise versa to maintain scrub radius.

here what it looks Like (not specific to Rivian) with a +offset suspension geometry. Blue like is hub face, red line is rim center, black line is the kingpin angle.

 

[ColeAK]

Here is a good scrub radius calculator

Rim & Tire Size Calculator. Custom Offsets

Tire Tech Information - The Wheel Fitment, Tyre Stretch, Rolling Radius and Speedometer Error Calculator. Play with specs, try different settings, compare results

www.wheel-size.com

 

[atebit]

Remember the “ELI5” part of the OP title? Is there a readily-available wheel & winter tire combo available today that doesn’t require attacking the truck with aviation snips?

 

[ColeAK]

Remember the “ELI5” part of the OP title? Is there a readily-available wheel & winter tire combo available today that doesn’t require attacking the truck with aviation snips?

Yes. OEM 20’s with 285/50-20 Hakka, Blizzak, or XIce.

 

[atebit]

I have a message into my Guide inquiring how to buy the OEM stock wheels…

 

[EaglesPDX]

Yes. OEM 20’s with 285/50-20 Hakka, Blizzak, or XIce.

Would something like the Michelin Defender LTX M/S at 285/60/20 get better range than the 21' stock Pirellis?

 

[ColeAK]

Would something like the Michelin Defender LTX M/S at 285/60/20 get better range than the 21' stock Pirellis?

Defender LTX m/s is my all time favorite AT tire. They do it all great: off road, highway, rain, light snow, efficient. I know many people that run them year round here in AK. I ran them year round on my g-wagon when we spent 3 years in NE TN. In AK I had them as my summer tires for 3 sets before the KO2s I put on this spring. Only switched to KO2s because couldn’t get defenders in
LT285/75-R17 until ~July and needed summer tires in May. I’m active on the Land cruiser forum IH8MUD, it is regarded as a top tire in that crowd that tend to be highly critical on what goes into/on their rigs.

 

[Yellow Buddy]

@Yellow Buddy responded to a question about l winter tires I had in another thread; we decided to start a new thread on the topic.

I have the stock 21”s today and am concerned about the winter traction of “no season” tires. Here were the requirement questions he came up with:



In terms of general traction concerns, the highways in my area are usually well maintained during major storms, at least as much as is practicable. My larger concern are the narrow, hilly back roads around where I live. There’s no shoulder. My township has “A” dual-axle salt truck that also is “THE” plow truck, supported by a Fx50-ish pickup plow for cleanup. Sometimes, the plow doesn’t make it to us until it’s just pushing the slush off the road. And when it does come during a storm, it does a great job of plowing in our driveway apron.
We lived in NC for 10 years before coming back to PA. At the time I had a 4WD Tacoma with “no season” tires thh h at were appropriate for about 363 days of the year in NC. The first winter back in PA the Tacoma got stuck in a drift on one of the hilly roads.
Since that experience, I’ve always had a set of steel wheels with winter tires. But given the limited selection of wheels (and therefore tires) for the R1T, I was hoping someone with a ScD in Tireology could make some suggestions.
View attachment 6741

What grade of hills are we talking? And what part of PA? I’m in a neighboring state and drive very similar roads.

Im a big advocate of winter/snow tires in general. But I will say having even a dual motor EV is a significant improvement over a 4WD or AWD ICE vehicle. I would put it on par with the difference of an AWD vs a RWD car. So much that I actually stopped my extra set of wheels and Nokias winter tires for my Model X. The final decision to do so was from a freak snow storm, I was caught on my low profile 22” all seasons (Conti DWS06) and got home without any drama while others were stuck, sliding backwards, and abandoning cars on the road.

That said, I have been stuck once since then…when I pushed it too far and high sided the car. That’s more of a clearance issue than a tire traction issue though.

If you’re not by the lakes I might recommend trying the all seasons for a winter season. For pushing through fresh, low traffic snow it should be capable. Especially if you don’t have any other traction concerns. It sounds like it’s mostly the last several miles until you get to some well maintained roads otherwise. Keep in mind you have an additional 6” of ground clearance over the Taco. You’ll be well positioned to go over the snow vs through the snow as long as there’s a foot or less of snow.

If you’re by the lakes or further north, go with 20” wheels. OEM ones are going to be hard to get but there’s some aftermarket ones coming now. According to tirerack the only winter tire available and directly compatible with the R1T is the General Grabber Artic LT. that’s in terms of sizing, fit, load etc. They also have a selection of wheels that fit.

https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=General&tireModel=Grabber+Arctic+LT&partnum=765R0GRALT&wTire=0&autoMake=Rivian&autoYear=2022&autoModel=R1T&autoModClar=&wtpackage=true

 

[atebit]

I’m pretty much in the middle between Philadelphia and Lancaster. I’m not sure how to technically grade our hills beyond ranging from “rolling” to “steep”. We have lots of those “trucks reduce gear” signs around, not sure what the required grade is to have to post those. But it’s certainly not “mountainous”, more “ridge-liney”.
I agree 100% that the lack of a bunch of high momentum components between the systems driving the wheels and the wheels themselves help make EVs in general better in bad road conditions. If the traction control system wants the wheels to do something, that change happens at nearly the speed of light. But if the rubber that meets the road doesn’t grab, then what?

I can probably try some “safe” places in the R1T wearing the 21”s after our first big snow here to see how it handles. TireRack only gives the OEM 21” tires 7.2/6.3/5.9 for light snow/deep snow/ice traction, though. But since I don’t think anyone’s had an R1T through a blizzard yet, you’re right about not summarily writing them off as a capable winter tire in my area.

 

[EaglesPDX]

Defender LTX m/s is my all time favorite AT tire

Do you think at 20" it would get better range than the Pirelli road tire at 21"?

 

[atebit]

https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=General&tireModel=Grabber+Arctic+LT&partnum=765R0GRALT&wTire=0&autoMake=Rivian&autoYear=2022&autoModel=R1T&autoModClar=&wtpackage=true

Had a look, these don’t appear to be XL rated. I assume we need that?

 

[ColeAK]

Do you think at 20" it would get better range than the Pirelli road tire at 21"?

Probably slightly, not sure enough to really notice. overall smaller rims have better performance in every way.

 

[ColeAK]

Had a look, these don’t appear to be XL rated. I assume we need that?

They are E rated LT tires. Much higher load rated then p metric XL. Their Max load is 3750 lbs per tire, 15k for all 4.