[MacO512]

I saw some comments on how misleading eMPG is and after doing some calculations I was totally shocked at these numbers.

Rivian R1T window sticker shows efficiency of 48 kWh/100mi. Electrifiy America member cost is $0.43 per kWh.

Thus 100 miles cost $20.64. At the current AAA national gas price average of $3.34 this could have purchased 6.2 gallons of gas.

6.2 gallons of gas over 100 miles is the equivalent of 16.2 mpg???

You can charge at home for likely much cheaper, but even with a low $0.13 kWh rate you are looking at around a 53 mpg equivalent. Nothing close to the the 74 eMPG numbers the EPA is pushing on the R1 window stickers. And who will go a whole year with no fast charging? What about road trips or other times where fast charging is a must?

I welcome others analysis or any counterpoints to the above calculations.

I'm having some serious doubt about my R1S reservation. Not just the lack of electric $ savings, although this is eye opening; but also no full size spare, pushing this odd 21" wheel size, the $70k price, long wait, no carplay/android auto, forcing Amazon Alexis on us, drastic reduction in range while towing, battery degradation, concerns of other issues as an early EV adopter of a big SUV. Maybe I just consider something such as the 2023 Sequoia. I'm torn as I really do like the idea of an EV and a lot of the features of the R1S as well as Rivian.

 

[SANZCO2]

I saw some comments on how misleading eMPG is and after doing some calculations I was totally shocked at these numbers.

Rivian R1T window sticker shows efficiency of 48 kWh/100mi. Electrifiy America member cost is $0.43 per kWh.

Thus 100 miles cost $20.64. At the current AAA national gas price average of $3.34 this could have purchased 6.2 gallons of gas.

6.2 gallons of gas over 100 miles is the equivalent of 16.2 mpg???

You can charge at home for likely much cheaper, but even with a low $0.13 kWh rate you are looking at around a 53 mpg equivalent. Nothing close to the the 74 eMPG numbers the EPA is pushing on the R1 window stickers. And who will go a whole year with no fast charging? What about road trips or other times where fast charging is a must?

I welcome others analysis or any counterpoints to the above calculations.

I'm having some serious doubt about my R1S reservation. Not just the lack of electric $ savings, although this is eye opening; but also no full size spare, pushing this odd 21" wheel size, the $70k price, long wait, no carplay/android auto, forcing Amazon Alexis on us, drastic reduction in range while towing, battery degradation, concerns of other issues as an early EV adopter of a big SUV. Maybe I just consider something such as the 2023 Sequoia. I'm torn as I really do like the idea of an EV and a lot of the features of the R1S as well as Rivian.

You can’t really use it to compare cost, it is more designed to compare vehicles, here is a write up on it.

 

[seageo]

As Sanzc02 noted, that's not really the comparison point for mpge. That being said:

Small point of clarification, EA is $0.31/kwh with their basic membership. Rivian has said their membership will have unlimited charging on RAN included. If it's $50/month and you (I wouldn't recommend this) charge exclusively on RAN would that mean that it's $0.05/mile? So... 67 mpg equivalent costs? That'd be ignoring any of the other benefits associated with the membership (connectivity?)

For EPA testing it takes 48 kWh to travel 100 miles with the R1T. So at $0.13/kwh that's $6.24/100 miles equivalent to 53 mpg in gas costs alone. Which obviously vary a lot. It's more than $4/gallon locally for my Volvo.Toss in the cost for other maintenance that you know you'll have with an ICE (oil changes...) and there are obviously some other costs.

Purely on EA sure, it's somewhere between 15 and 25 mpg for "refueling" costs.

I don't really know of a SUV the size of the R1S that would cost less than ~$6.25/100 miles. Do you?

The explore R1S is what... $62.5k after the tax break assuming you get it? That's the same as a 4WD Sequoia Limited isn't it? Which gets 13/17 mpg, and still has oil changes and other ICE maintenance, right? Do you really prefer Toyota's interface, even with CP/AA over Rivian's? Is Toyota's voice control system for the native car system better than Alexa (no)? I'm not saying there aren't negatives with the R1S, but it seems like you're really focusing on them while ignoring other positives (not the least of which is significantly less emissions than a 15 mpg SUV).

 

[Yellow Buddy]

I saw some comments on how misleading eMPG is and after doing some calculations I was totally shocked at these numbers.

Rivian R1T window sticker shows efficiency of 48 kWh/100mi. Electrifiy America member cost is $0.43 per kWh.

Thus 100 miles cost $20.64. At the current AAA national gas price average of $3.34 this could have purchased 6.2 gallons of gas.

6.2 gallons of gas over 100 miles is the equivalent of 16.2 mpg???

You can charge at home for likely much cheaper, but even with a low $0.13 kWh rate you are looking at around a 53 mpg equivalent. Nothing close to the the 74 eMPG numbers the EPA is pushing on the R1 window stickers. And who will go a whole year with no fast charging? What about road trips or other times where fast charging is a must?

I welcome others analysis or any counterpoints to the above calculations.

I'm having some serious doubt about my R1S reservation. Not just the lack of electric $ savings, although this is eye opening; but also no full size spare, pushing this odd 21" wheel size, the $70k price, long wait, no carplay/android auto, forcing Amazon Alexis on us, drastic reduction in range while towing, battery degradation, concerns of other issues as an early EV adopter of a big SUV. Maybe I just consider something such as the 2023 Sequoia. I'm torn as I really do like the idea of an EV and a lot of the features of the R1S as well as Rivian.

<--- Guy will go an entire year without fast charging and I've got (3) Tesla's with Free Unlimited Supercharging.

I think you're having an EV issue and not necessarily a Rivian issue.

TLDR: Your calculations aren't wrong, but you have to factor in the entire ecosystem. EVs aren't cheap enough to be a good fit for everyone yet.

When I first got them, I charged everywhere I could. By year 3, I was even going specifically to the supercharger as they were abundant and free so I wouldn't have to pay for the electricity at home.

6+ years later the time I spend at the charger just isn't worth. My average cost to "Fill" my tank is roughly $5-$7 depending on the car when I charge it at home. That's assuming I pay retail electric rates, which I don't due to solar.

So how much would I have spent if I paid retail rates on roughly 280,000 miles?

- My avg Wh/mi across all 3 cars (1 of which tows regularly) is approximately 415Wh/mi. The Model S gets under 280Wh/mi but the X that tows has seen 900Wh/mi on cold, icy towing days. With a 15%-20% loss factored in due to vampire losses, charging efficiency losses, etc. It's estimated I'm actually using closer to 477 to 500Wh/mi of electricity.

So math time. 500Wh / 1000 = 0.5kWh/mi. 0.5kWh * 280,000 miles = 140,000kWh used. Multiplied by $0.147/kWh retail electric rate in my local area = $20,580 in electric costs over 6 years to do those miles. Divided by 280,000 miles = $0.0735 per mile.

$20,580 divided by $3/gallon = 6,860 gallons of gasoline. That's the equivalent of 40MPG at $3/gallon. 54MPG if gas goes to $4/gallon. 27mpg at $2/gallon.

Electric cars do not fit every situation.

So let's assume I went out and bought a Ecodiesel Jeep Grand Cherokee instead of my Model X (or a Ecodielel RAM 1500 instead of the R1T). I almost bought one, love them and follow those forums still. While towing they get about 16-18mpg and is rated for 25mpg combined and let's say I tow 25% of time with a projected 23mpg average. We'll even go back 2 years ago at $2.80/gallon of diesel. 280,000 miles divided by 23 mpg = 12,173 gallons time $2.80/gallon = $34,086 in a highly optimistic scenario.

The total difference is $13,500.

In my scenario, maintenance was a wash. The jeep would have needed more routine maintenance. But my Tesla required some pretty pricey repairs that most cars seem to have sorted out. They also seem to chew through tires as a much quicker rate. So then it comes down to cost.

$85,000 was what I paid for my MX/ea. The MS were cheaper. - $7,500 federal = $78,000. A Jeep Grand Cherokee Summit Ecodiesel at the time was roughly $58,000. Because of the tax/registration laws in my state ICE cars are taxed, EVs are not so we're looking at more of a $16,000 price difference.

The total electric/gas cost was for 3 cars. This is for 1 of those 3 cars. So as you can see paying retail electric rates, I would not have covered the difference yet.

Electric cars are not for everyone.

Sure there's other things to consider. I got a faster car. It had cool doors. The tech was nice. But based on your post let's focus purely on the financial aspect and this is going to be a brutally honest post. The reality is both served the same purpose, both are quite nice to be inside and I would have enjoyed either one. But the reality is a Ford Lightning Pro is $40,000 and a R1T is $77,000. Both at the end of the day are electric trucks but we all obviously have a preference.

If you consider electric cars in a bubble as a replacement for a gas car, we still haven't reached the point where it makes complete financial sense. It needs help to get there. You'll hear about maintenance savings...I haven't seen that. You'll hear about less running cost (electric vs gas) the numbers don't show that. They sure as heck aren't cheaper either.

But that's where the other pieces came in. AFTER buying my first EV, I found out the incentives for solar are quite generous in my state. I went and bought solar. I now have roughly 45kW of solar power generating roughly 10-11mWh/year. The breakeven point for that solar system turned out to by right at about 5 years. That's to cover home heating, hot water heating, HVAC cooling, well water..all of it. If you notice, that doesn't include the cost to charge the cars. I was able to break even in 5 years on total system cost from that without the cars, which means my actual electric rate is $0.00/kwh per mile driven. It also means I'm straight saved $34,000 in gas costs over 6 years, which more than covers the cost difference between all 3 of my Teslas (compared to a Jeep Grand Cherokee Summit Ecodiesel, a BMW 5 series, and an Audi Q7 while cross shopping).

Your situation may be different..it may not be. Just make sure you take all the pieces of the puzzle into account. EVs aren't quite there in terms of value proposition alone, but if we're making the move it doesn't have to be done by itself.

 

[MacO512]

The explore R1S is what... $62.5k after the tax break assuming you get it? That's the same as a 4WD Sequoia Limited isn't it? Which gets 13/17 mpg, and still has oil changes and other ICE maintenance, right? Do you really prefer Toyota's interface, even with CP/AA over Rivian's? Is Toyota's voice control system for the native car system better than Alexa (no)? I'm not saying there aren't negatives with the R1S, but it seems like you're really focusing on them while ignoring other positives (not the least of which is significantly less emissions than a 15 mpg SUV).

The 2023 Sequoia is a brand new redesign with a hybrid engine, it doesn't have EPA numbers yet. The new Tundra on the same platform that came out last year gets 24mpg without the hybrid so it should exceed that. I don't mind doing oil changes, its $27 for 5 quarts of mobil1 at walmart. Now I do like a lot of things about the Rivian and EV's, thats why I'm torn on what to do. I'm focusing on the negatives more with the R1S because I paid $1k on an order, and planned to wait for it. Now as I learn more and evaluate the pro's and con's of each choice I'm not as certain what I'll be the most happy with.

I thought the EV charging cost would be a huge advantage to owning an R1S. It just shocked me that it may not be an advantage at all. You and others who have posted here did print up excellent points to consider though, thanks.

 

[MacO512]

<--- Guy will go an entire year without fast charging and I've got (3) Tesla's with Free Unlimited Supercharging.

I think you're having an EV issue and not necessarily a Rivian issue.

TLDR: Your calculations aren't wrong, but you have to factor in the entire ecosystem. EVs aren't cheap enough to be a good fit for everyone yet.

When I first got them, I charged everywhere I could. By year 3, I was even going specifically to the supercharger as they were abundant and free so I wouldn't have to pay for the electricity at home.

6+ years later the time I spend at the charger just isn't worth. My average cost to "Fill" my tank is roughly $5-$7 depending on the car when I charge it at home. That's assuming I pay retail electric rates, which I don't due to solar.

So how much would I have spent if I paid retail rates on roughly 280,000 miles?

- My avg Wh/mi across all 3 cars (1 of which tows regularly) is approximately 415Wh/mi. The Model S gets under 280Wh/mi but the X that tows has seen 900Wh/mi on cold, icy towing days. With a 15%-20% loss factored in due to vampire losses, charging efficiency losses, etc. It's estimated I'm actually using closer to 477 to 500Wh/mi of electricity.

So math time. 500Wh / 1000 = 0.5kWh/mi. 0.5kWh * 280,000 miles = 140,000kWh used. Multiplied by $0.147/kWh retail electric rate in my local area = $20,580 in electric costs over 6 years to do those miles. Divided by 280,000 miles = $0.0735 per mile.

$20,580 divided by $3/gallon = 6,860 gallons of gasoline. That's the equivalent of 40MPG at $3/gallon. 54MPG if gas goes to $4/gallon. 27mpg at $2/gallon.

Electric cars do not fit every situation.

So let's assume I went out and bought a Ecodiesel Jeep Grand Cherokee instead of my Model X (or a Ecodielel RAM 1500 instead of the R1T). I almost bought one, love them and follow those forums still. While towing they get about 16-18mpg and is rated for 25mpg combined and let's say I tow 25% of time with a projected 23mpg average. We'll even go back 2 years ago at $2.80/gallon of diesel. 280,000 miles divided by 23 mpg = 12,173 gallons time $2.80/gallon = $34,086 in a highly optimistic scenario.

The total difference is $13,500.

In my scenario, maintenance was a wash. The jeep would have needed more routine maintenance. But my Tesla required some pretty pricey repairs that most cars seem to have sorted out. They also seem to chew through tires as a much quicker rate. So then it comes down to cost.

$85,000 was what I paid for my MX/ea. The MS were cheaper. - $7,500 federal = $78,000. A Jeep Grand Cherokee Summit Ecodiesel at the time was roughly $58,000. Because of the tax/registration laws in my state ICE cars are taxed, EVs are not so we're looking at more of a $16,000 price difference.

The total electric/gas cost was for 3 cars. This is for 1 of those 3 cars. So as you can see paying retail electric rates, I would not have covered the difference yet.

Electric cars are not for everyone.

Sure there's other things to consider. I got a faster car. It had cool doors. The tech was nice. But based on your post let's focus purely on the financial aspect and this is going to be a brutally honest post. The reality is both served the same purpose, both are quite nice to be inside and I would have enjoyed either one. But the reality is a Ford Lightning Pro is $40,000 and a R1T is $77,000. Both at the end of the day are electric trucks but we all obviously have a preference.

If you consider electric cars in a bubble as a replacement for a gas car, we still haven't reached the point where it makes complete financial sense. It needs help to get there. You'll hear about maintenance savings...I haven't seen that. You'll hear about less running cost (electric vs gas) the numbers don't show that. They sure as heck aren't cheaper either.

But that's where the other pieces came in. AFTER buying my first EV, I found out the incentives for solar are quite generous in my state. I went and bought solar. I now have roughly 45kW of solar power generating roughly 10-11mWh/year. The breakeven point for that solar system turned out to by right at about 5 years. That's to cover home heating, hot water heating, HVAC cooling, well water..all of it. If you notice, that doesn't include the cost to charge the cars. I was able to break even in 5 years on total system cost from that without the cars, which means my actual electric rate is $0.00/kwh per mile driven. It also means I'm straight saved $34,000 in gas costs over 6 years, which more than covers the cost difference between all 3 of my Teslas (compared to a Jeep Grand Cherokee Summit Ecodiesel, a BMW 5 series, and an Audi Q7 while cross shopping).

Your situation may be different..it may not be. Just make sure you take all the pieces of the puzzle into account. EVs aren't quite there in terms of value proposition alone, but if we're making the move it doesn't have to be done by itself.

Great points, very much appreciated. Overall it seems like your experience is to buy an EV because you want it, not really with a primary benefit of fuel or maintenance savings. Yes I might save x dollars on oil changes or y dollars on gas, but that might come out to a wash with EV only costs people overlook.

With your experience of towing 900 Wh/mi, I'd imagine that type of trip is a major inconvenience, your range is probably only around 100 miles. Plus trying to charge with a trailer hooked up. I'd much prefer to have an ICE vehicle available for that type of trip.

I like your analysis of solar. I had thought of getting solar at some point, it would make sense if we plan to live in the house over 10 years, but probably not if we are selling in 5 years. If we did buy solar I could oversize and then benefit from EV charging. Selling back to the power company is less than half the cost of buying the electricity, so its usually not really worth it to oversize, but the benefit of more EV charging could make an oversized system worth it.

 

[O. horridus]

MPG and MPGe have nothing to do with cost. Comparing "miles per gallon" based on cost of fuel makes no sense. That would mean if two people had the same model ICE vehicle but one paid $4/gallon for gas and the other paid $3/gallon for gas, the first person would have a lower MPG because he doesn't go as far for the same amount of money spent? That's not what MPG means. And that's not what MPGe means either. So your calculations are fundamentally flawed.

MPGe is a standard rating for energy usage - it is the amount of energy used by an EV to travel a certain distance, expressed in units of how much usable energy is in a gallon of gas. Because that's more familiar to people than units expressed in Joules or ergs or electronvolts. It does not depend on the cost of electricity or gasoline, it does not vary from region-to-region or depend on seasonal costs of fuel, etc.

MPGe is primarily useful for comparing one EV to another EV - as a standardized measure it represents an average calculated under assumed driving conditions. Your actual usage will greatly depend on how YOU use the vehicle. That's true of MPG as well. The benefit of both metrics is that the way the are measured is well-defined so you can compare two vehicles.

Now if you simply want to figure out whether it's cost-effective for you to buy an EV, that's an entirely different question. Total cost of ownership involves lots of things. And it's also highly dependent on YOUR usage. Most people do most of their charging at home or at free stations. In most cases, filling your "tank" with electrons will be significantly less than the cost of filling your tank with gas. With an EV you have the ability to reduce your fuel costs by using solar and seeking out free stations, but you could always pay more if you really want by always going to the expensive EA stations, by charging your vehicle with a propane generator, etc. Conversely, you really don't have much control over gasoline costs other than seeking out the cheapest station. Every detailed study I have seen shows EVs have a lower TCO over lifetime of the vehicle.

But that's not really the point. The total cost of destroying the planet through continued use of fossil fuels is immeasurably greater than the alternative, so even if the bottom line is that an EV will cost you more, isn't it worth it?

 

[Yellow Buddy]

Great points, very much appreciated. Overall it seems like your experience is to buy an EV because you want it, not really with a primary benefit of fuel or maintenance savings. Yes I might save x dollars on oil changes or y dollars on gas, but that might come out to a wash with EV only costs people overlook.

That's exactly correct. I personally went into it as a financial decision just like you did. I calculated the savings from oil changes, gas, brake pads, etc. IMO the right question is really do you want an electric vehicle? And if you do, is the R1S in your case the right electric vehicle?

You'll also value things differently. I saw you spoke about oil changes. I don't mind doing them myself or having it done. But my wife always took her car to the dealer - which annoyed me to pay $100 for an oil change when the oil costs $15 and I had the tools - and..she hated going to the dealer.

So it's hard to put a price tag on something situational and personal like that where she can now avoid something she hated.

With your experience of towing 900 Wh/mi, I'd imagine that type of trip is a major inconvenience, your range is probably only around 100 miles. Plus trying to charge with a trailer hooked up. I'd much prefer to have an ICE vehicle available for that type of trip.

Significantly less than that. I have base models 60kWh and 75kWh total battery size. That gave me roughly 80 miles of range if I was fully charged if I was towing in the cold. The fastest way on a trip is actually to avoid 0-100% charging and stay in thee 15%-80% range. That gives 65% of usable capacity after your initial leave home charge and in between fast chargers. That's roughly 50 miles. That is an extreme situation though. Most of my trailer hauls averaged around ~600's wh/mi. With an enclosed trailer and careful local driving I can stay in the 400's quite easily.

That said I've towed a trailer ~350 miles in one day before. It can be done. I've also driven 1000 miles in a span of 48 hours in an EV before. It can be done. I prefer to do both of those in an ICE vehicle instead of an electric vehicle.

But I've also done a 400 mile day trip without a trailer in an EV. As well as a 1000 mile road trip and that was more leisurely and I wouldn't hesitate to do either one again. It's situational.

A 8 hour haul turns in 12 hours. A 6 hour haul turns in 10. A bigger battery, more range, faster charging capacity would help all of those. But it's a weakness. That said, most of my tows are not long hauls. If you're hauling a camper on the highway, it's not a good way to go. If you're hauling trailers to the local beach, mountain, Home Depot etc. I wouldn't hestitate to do it and wouldn't think twice about it. I'd say my max tolerance with a trailer is maybe 1-2 charging stops.

As for charging with a trailer - not much different than gassing up with one. You'll need to navigate through other people. You'll take up more space than usual. You get used to it either way and it becomes a non-event. The first couple of times may be more embarrassing in your head than it actually is. I still remember the days when I took the time to unhook to charge....silly.

I like your analysis of solar. I had thought of getting solar at some point, it would make sense if we plan to live in the house over 10 years, but probably not if we are selling in 5 years. If we did buy solar I could oversize and then benefit from EV charging. Selling back to the power company is less than half the cost of buying the electricity, so its usually not really worth it to oversize, but the benefit of more EV charging could make an oversized system worth it.

That's exactly our case. Selling back gets wholesale rates (~$0.02/kWh) so once we were past the retail rate (~$0.147/kWh) we stopped. It's just so incentive based. Without anything but federal incentives I believe the payback calculation was ~12 years. But the state incentives will bring that much further down. I will say the benefit here far outweighed any electric car. Financially and as an environmental benefit (which wasn't my primary concern) I've since moved my entire house to electric, getting off of oil, propane, etc.

According to my solar dashboard using the solar energy vs my local coal grid power is the equivalent of planting 530 trees/year and saves roughly 70,000 lb of CO2 per year.

Last comments...
If you're looking at a Sequoia I'd actually prefer the gas version over the hybrid version. You might end up dealing with 2 headaches in a hybrid because you'd incur maintenance costs from not only the ICE but also the electric powertrain components of an EV. Toyota's been doing the hybrid thing a long time but just a thought.

And despite everything I've laid out, I still own my EVs. I also have a gas truck and the only reason I have one is because I don't have either my Ford Lightning Pro nor my R1T yet. I'm obviously convinced that despite losing the perceived positives that I like it enough to keep with it. Not only that, my Ford Lightning Pro will have roughly 200 miles of range and that doesn't scare me. It would have when 6 years ago. Now? Not so much.

 

[Yellow Buddy]

Double post

 

[Mattedfred]

t

 

[Mattedfred]

Great points, very much appreciated. Overall it seems like your experience is to buy an EV because you want it, not really with a primary benefit of fuel or maintenance savings. Yes I might save x dollars on oil changes or y dollars on gas, but that might come out to a wash with EV only costs people overlook.

With your experience of towing 900 Wh/mi, I'd imagine that type of trip is a major inconvenience, your range is probably only around 100 miles. Plus trying to charge with a trailer hooked up. I'd much prefer to have an ICE vehicle available for that type of trip.

I like your analysis of solar. I had thought of getting solar at some point, it would make sense if we plan to live in the house over 10 years, but probably not if we are selling in 5 years. If we did buy solar I could oversize and then benefit from EV charging. Selling back to the power company is less than half the cost of buying the electricity, so its usually not really worth it to oversize, but the benefit of more EV charging could make an oversized system worth it.

 

[shawnkaplan000]

Found this really cool EV vs. ICE comparison that may be of interest:

EV Savings and Benefits | PECO - An Exelon Company

www.peco.com

 

[@Boise]

Seems that the future cost of cleaning up ICE exhaust which would include induced health issues, particulate contamination, ground contamination at thousands of gas stations and much more should be included in calculations for Gas vs EV.

 

[SANZCO2]

The cost comparisons make little sense. The original post shows the cost if you do not join the EA at 4 dollars a month that drops the cost to .31 cents a KW. One charge a month of at least 34 KW pays for that monthly charge. 100 KW without the joining EA is $43.00. It is only $35.00 including the monthly $4 fee.

What makes it even more difficult is if you generate excess solar as I do. For the most part I will be paying zero for the electricity (at least 275 KW a month, more in the summer) and gas today in SOCal is 5.75 a gallon.

Using those numbers, I could drive an R1S getting 2 miles per KW 550 miles for free. My Jeep GC gets about 18 mpg on average, the same 550 miles would cost me $179.69. If that stayed the same all year it would be 6600 miles, free in the EV and $2,156.28 in the Jeep.

 

[iansriv]

The cost comparisons make little sense. The original post shows the cost if you do not join the EA at 4 dollars a month that drops the cost to .31 cents a KW. One charge a month of at least 34 KW pays for that monthly charge. 100 KW without the joining EA is $43.00. It is only $35.00 including the monthly $4 fee.

What makes it even more difficult is if you generate excess solar as I do. For the most part I will be paying zero for the electricity (at least 275 KW a month, more in the summer) and gas today in SOCal is 5.75 a gallon.

Using those numbers, I could drive an R1S getting 2 miles per KW 550 miles for free. My Jeep GC gets about 18 mpg on average, the same 550 miles would cost me $179.69. If that stayed the same all year it would be 6600 miles, free in the EV and $2,156.28 in the Jeep.

I am very new to EVs and solar, so please, forgive my ignorance. Is there an easy way to install solar only for the R1? Is it as simple as installing a few solar panels and hooking the R1 to them?

 

[sciencegeek]

Typically, solar will have to be hooked up in coordination with your utility. Here in CA for most people it's Southern CA Edison or PG&E. Your array feeds into the grid and that offsets your overall use by the whole home.

 

[EaglesPDX]

Cost to own and operate EV's is not about saving money. It's about zero greenhouse gas emissions. If you want to save money, you aren't considering a $70-120k vehicle of any type.

Cost per mile is fairly easy to figure if you want to know your operating costs. In your equation above, your cost per kWh is in your home electric bill not on the infrequent times you charge at EA which is $0.31 per kWh.

Assuming the 48kWh/100 miles at the $0.15 kWh I pay at home for 85% of my miles is $0.07 per mile. My Subaru at 32 mph and $5 gas would have been $0.16 per mile.

 

[SANZCO2]

I am very new to EVs and solar, so please, forgive my ignorance. Is there an easy way to install solar only for the R1? Is it as simple as installing a few solar panels and hooking the R1 to them?

Typically, solar will have to be hooked up in coordination with your utility. Here in CA for most people it's Southern CA Edison or PG&E. Your array feeds into the grid and that offsets your overall use by the whole home.

What sciencegeek said. We are on Net Metering where we have credits for the excess we generate. In CA with net metering, you still pay some taxes and a connection fee, it comes out to 12 to 15 dollars a month if you generate more than you use. When I sized the system I calculated my daily use and added extra for the new Rivian. I’ve had a Tesla for 6 years but that came with lifetime free super charging so I rarely charged at home. Once I added the solar I have been charging the Tesla at home and still have excess.

 

[@Boise]

I am very new to EVs and solar, so please, forgive my ignorance. Is there an easy way to install solar only for the R1? Is it as simple as installing a few solar panels and hooking the R1 to them?

We have solar on the house that is hooked to the grid. Our state has net metering and we produce more electricity than needed. Our monthly electric bill is Round $5 for the account. That includes charging our EV6. We also charge during off peak hours as the EV6 can be scheduled to charge.

Payback for the solar is estimated to be 7-9 years. That does not include the significant satisfaction we get from generating and using green energy. It also increases the value of your home.

 

[Yossarian]

Interesting thread.

This thread started with reference to the R1S, which is actually the Rivian model I want. It is intended to replace a Kia Telluride that replaced a Volvo XC-90. I'd hoped to replace the 13 year-old Volvo directly with a Rivian, but the delays in deliveries rendered that plan moot. Worse, there is no large-capacity (<135 kWh) R1S, and it appears that such a model is at least a few more years away if it will be available at all. As a result, my order is presently for an R1T Max. All of this by way of apology to the OP for moving the discussion away from the R1S and EV cost of operation.

I'm planning to purchase an EV for greenhouse gas reduction reasons, not cost saving. Since we are a one-car family however, whatever vehicle we're driving needs to fill multiple roles. The role that the Rivian, or any EV at this stage, has the most trouble filling is towing our small camper over long distances. Being able to do that requires two things: a more built-up charging infrastructure and relatively large battery capacity. As present, the former is lacking, so the latter is of more importance.

There has not been a huge amount of Rivian towing testing and data. The lone factory test was with a box trailer with an R1T at its maximum 11,000 lb tow capacity. Actual power consumption details are lacking, with Rivian stating simply that range was reduced by 50%. Since then, there have been some other towing tests by Rivian customers and reviewers.

The recent OOS towing test showed, to no one's surprise, that drag is a much larger component than weight in power consumption. Their "aero" tow test, a plywood panel mounted vertically on a utility trailer, indicated that consumption was in the 0.8kWh per mile range. That would mean that even with the Max battery package, you would be looking at an effective range of 90 or so miles, assuming you wanted a 10% SOC reserve. That consumption level also represents something close to a 70% range reduction.

I'm hoping that the OOS test is kind of a worst-case, or at least that towing my smaller, more aerodynamic teardrop will not result in the same ~70% range loss. A fair number of folks on this forum have indicated that it's not however, with more than a few basically telling me I'm nuts if I think I will be able to tow my camper cross-country with a Rivian. Yet, a few folks on the [email protected] camper forum (I have a model 320 BD, about 2,000 lbs wet and about 7-1/2' high, 8' wide and 15-1/2' long) report towing successfully over fairly long distances with Tesla Model Y's. Their consumption varies, but even the lowest is substantially greater than 0.8 kWh/mi.

Rivian tells me that delivery of my R1T Max will be in the first half of 2023, which I suspect is a bit optimistic. Regardless, there is at least another full year before the EV can be in my driveway, a period that should allow for more data on towing to flow back and gives more time for substantial improvement to the charging infrastructure.

It may turn out that it's a bit too early in the EV lifecycle for it to be the vehicle for our needs. If that is case, I hope that it's just a brief delay, and that the improvements in battery storage and EV operating efficiency that are needed to make towing longer distances viable are just around the corner.