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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Watched the Ford F-150 Lightning reveal. Certainly underwhelmed by it. Now "wow" moments or features.


Don't get me wrong, it will likely be a great truck and perfect for bringing typical truck buyers from gas to electric. Those that want a truck just for a truck and not looking for anything fancy.

Me personally, I love having a vehicle that has a "wow" factor to it. Be it, in the appearance or features of the vehicle.

Was never in love with the look of a Tesla, but they certainly had the "wow" factor down with the never before seen technology.

The Rivian's appearance is nothing outrageous by any means. I love the look of the proposed Nikola Truck that will never happen. But, I'm one that likes the Ford Raptor over the regular F-150. I love the bad ass look of the Hummer. But, the Rivian, while relatively low key, is still unique. The Ford is very plane jane. Looks like a very basic F-150. Was hoping they would either sport it up like the original Lighting or go the way of the Raptor with some aggressive styling cues. But, they chose the tried and true basics to appeal to actual pick-up truck buyers. And, they'll be highly successful.

But, I still think for most higher-end buyers, the Rivian has FAR greater appeal. It will offer owners something that is unique on the road, rather than just blending in with all the other vehicles that look exactly the same as the best selling vehicle on the planet. Yet, Rivian does it in a low key manner that doesn't scream, "LOOK AT ME, I'M DIFFERENT" as many EV's do.

Features of the F-150 that underwhelm include: 300 max range. Not bad, but certainly nothing special. The most pleasantly surprising announcement was that Ford will offer a drive assist feature, apparently competitive with Cadillac (Hummer) and Rivian's system. The interior, other than the screen, looks the same as any other Ford. I do like the vertical layout better, but not a fan of the big knob it shares with the "Mustang" Mach-E. Also, the ability to power your house is another nice bonus. But, is something that any EV can offer.....if they want to.

The Rivian still leads the race for me. I want an EV Truck and am considering the Hummer, Rivian and CyberTruck. Cybertruck is unlikely for me as I can't handle the looks and the interior is too plain for me, similar to a Model 3, which I personally was not a fan of. Much prefer the Model S/X interior, but even those are nothing special. Rivian looks more premium than any Tesla. The Hummer has a cool interior as well.

Ford didn't mention an adjustable air suspension, which all of the other three will have and I think is a big deal.

Rivian also wins out for its Tank Turn feature, automatic Tonneau cover, multi-function tailgate, tunnel, 400 miles in range. Plus, as was the case with Tesla in the beginning, I loved the customer service from a new company that really made you feel loved. Loaner cars, pick up your vehicle from you, personal touch service, etc. Those are gone from Tesla now, but expect Rivian will start off the way Tesla did and will be able to enjoy that for at least a couple of years.

And, as touched on above, when spending over $70,000 on a vehicle, which the Ford will be if you get it optioned up, I want something that not everyone on the road has. The Hummer will be low sales volume and will always standout. Rivian, while lower key, will be unique as well. The Cybertruck certainly is different too.

Those are my thoughts. I think the Ford will do well as it will appeal to blue collar buyers, but, I don't think its reveal today did anything to hurt the sales of the other three trucks. Ford didn't do much to brag about its off-road capability. It certainly doesn't look like it was built with that in mind. The other three certainly do.

My money is staying put on the Rivian and hoping like heck that they deliver as advertised somewhere close to their announced delivery dates.
 

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$40k base price, V2H and 9.6kW of output (and so,emcrazy number of power outlets) were impressive. Truck itself, not so much. It’ll be interesting to see what a well equipped one with MSRP at. For $100, I went ahead and reserved one just for grins.
 

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Check rivianownersforum.com, more than a third of the people polled there reserved one and another 17% consider it...that’s 50% of serious Rivian fans that are open to other options....if I saw a survey for my own business with numbers like that I would make some changes very quickly. Think the only company that can afford that much attrition without needing to pay attention is Rolex.
The sample size is to small to extrapolate the results. That would be like calling an election after counting one precinct. I think there are over 2k users in that forum and 75 responses.

With a 100 dollar deposit not much skin in the game like Tesla CT deposits, a lot of people would put that down while they think about it.
 

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Price is better, mileage the same. Interior isn’t even close for the aesthetic buyer but might be better for the work truck. Having Ford service in every town in place is going to be less anxious and build out of super chargers could be quicker and dealership based. Rivians challenge now is a lot of nervous preorder customers “is my color the one, is my location the one, will production be even close to demand” - I think any more frustration with lack of transparency or delays (which I don’t expect) my Ford deposit just might be a safer logical bet - but I’m not there yet.
 

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$40k base price, V2H and 9.6kW of output (and so,emcrazy number of power outlets) were impressive. Truck itself, not so much. It’ll be interesting to see what a well equipped one with MSRP at. For $100, I went ahead and reserved one just for grins.
I had the exact same impression, and that the design of the underbody and suspension (compared to Rivian's more seamless design with air suspension) was not as well thought-out. I do think they will load up on $100 reservations, and they will sell a lot of these trucks, but I am def not switching out my R1T pre-order for a Lightening. After seeing all the things being delivered with the LE R1T, I would be very disappointed settling for that truck.

What really killed me was the attempted "hype" that they tried to wrap around the most standard EV features, but hey, the Lightening's battery is in a waterproof case! I love Rivian's more matter of fact, let the truck speak for itself approach. Taking the truck into the desert, floor it to 100 on a frozen lake while doing cold-weather testing, securing 2 years in a row at the Rebelle Rally, etc.
 

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I put in a pre-order for the Lightning to go with my R1T pre-order.

I'm a buyer that is completely on the fence between the two based on the info I have now. I know Fords, don't mind a basic interior, and do appreciate the 9.6 kW output and easier frunk access. Rivian scratches the itch for curb appeal and higher-end finishes, but is at the absolute high end of my budget.

For me, I'm waiting on more info on the following prior to making the choice next Spring:

1. Charging network. I'm waiting both on how the Federal infrastructure package plays out for charging, and more specifically the RAN details. I camp a lot in state and National Parks, and if the RAN comes through with more details about locations (beyond CO state parks) then that could sway me to stay with R1T.

2. Actual Lightning Price I'll see what the actual price is once I factor in the features which will make the truck usable for me. I don't need all the bells and whistles Rivian offers, but if I put together the build for the Lightning which has what I do need, and it's comparable in price, then I could be swayed back to Rivian.

Any other fence-sitters here?
 

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I think pre-orders for a 100$ reservation are basically meaningless so I don't know that anyone can or should draw any conclusions from any of those numbers.

To wit: I have reservations on all 3 Canoo vehicles. I also have a reservation on a CT. I also put one down on the F-150 last night. It's unlikely I'll end up fulfilling the reservation on either, since I just traded my Velar in for a Defender, and I'm still 100% committed to an R1T.

Why would I do it? Options for no cost. Deposits are refundable and you never know, maybe Rivian blows up tomorrow and I do still need a truck. Sure would be glad I have some reservation options since anyone looking to get an EV truck in 6 months is still going to be waiting in a long reservations line.

The only one available right now I didn't put a deposit on was a Hummer. The brand itself and the people associated with it are simply too much of a drawback for me, plus I personally don't want a gigantic oversized offroad vehicle, I'd rather have something mid-size and maneuverable that can get me down a lot of the narrow trails around here without pinstriping every square inch of my body :D I feel the same way about Raptors and TRX and other gigantic oversized trucks.
 

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I think pre-orders for a 100$ reservation are basically meaningless so I don't know that anyone can or should draw any conclusions from any of those numbers.

To wit: I have reservations on all 3 Canoo vehicles. I also have a reservation on a CT. I also put one down on the F-150 last night. It's unlikely I'll end up fulfilling the reservation on either, since I just traded my Velar in for a Defender, and I'm still 100% committed to an R1T.

Why would I do it? Options for no cost. Deposits are refundable and you never know, maybe Rivian blows up tomorrow and I do still need a truck. Sure would be glad I have some reservation options since anyone looking to get an EV truck in 6 months is still going to be waiting in a long reservations line.

The only one available right now I didn't put a deposit on was a Hummer. The brand itself and the people associated with it are simply too much of a drawback for me, plus I personally don't want a gigantic oversized offroad vehicle, I'd rather have something mid-size and maneuverable that can get me down a lot of the narrow trails around here without pinstriping every square inch of my body :D I feel the same way about Raptors and TRX and other gigantic oversized trucks.
I totally agree.

Fall 2021 when reservations start converting over into real orders, that's when we'll get solid numbers.

Even if the F-150 Lightning becomes a top seller, there's really no concern for Rivian or any others. The pickup truck market is massive and they'll be able to sell enough to become very profitable.
 

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Definitely sitting the fence with you Buttah_hustle. I expected to hate the Lightning before the launch. Now, I am going to reserve one.
The frunk is so much better than the Rivian (who the heck wants to lift coolers full of ice & food over the grill?) and powering the house in an emergency and tough to turn away from. And there are other benefits to the Ford too. Unfortunately, in the final tally, the pros and cons of each essentially cancel each other out and I am stuck not knowing which one is the better choice for me. I really thought Rivian would be clear winner, but not in my eyes.
I also think lg3103 is very correct that this should scare the sh&* out of Rivian (but probably won't). People on these forums (myself included) are your most ardent, vocal fans and have largely backed their vote with dollars. If half of them are swayed enough by the competition's spec sheet to move from the "I want a Rivian" to the "I want a Rivian or a Ford" camp, that's a big problem. Yes, the deposit is refundable, yes it's a small sample, but these are people getting in line and handing over money.
If it was a startup making the announcement it wouldn't carry the same weight. But this is one of the largest vehicle manufacturers - that specializes in pickup trucks - entering the market against a startup that has yet to ship one vehicle, and is largely angering it's fan base with its lack of updates about shipments that are supposed to start in a month. I am rooting for the upstart, but the only way that upstarts get a foot in the door of a market - especially one as notoriously difficult as automobiles - is by being much, much better than the established brands. Rivian was much, much better on Tuesday. Thursday they are neck and neck.
Even though Ford & Rivian are essentially partners, Ford just upped the stakes on Rivian and Rivian will lose sales if they don't do something real and noticeable soon. Tesla released the Model S and there was no real competition for at least 5 years. Rivian has competition within a few months.
 

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@PAFDenver a portfolio of vehicle is what will keep Rivian alive and I believe that's what they have planned throughout 2020. If all they had was the R1T, I would be concerned. As we see actual sales figures for the R1T and R1S, it will be interesting to see what really making them money.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
The Hummer was the first to come up with frunk grille being part of the hood. Ford liked the idea apparently. Rivian is at a disadvantage in that it takes them longer to do things as a smaller company, just as was the case with Tesla (and still is). GM & Ford have the resources to get to production much faster. The Rivan was designed years ago, so some things could be a little outdated by the time they make it to production. Clearly, they didn't think of the hood potential, nor did Tesla on any of their cars. Cybertruck maybe?

I think Ford wins on most fronts for those seeking a truck for work and such. Rivian & Hummer win for those seeking something different and with more off-road prowess. Many of the buyers will be buyers that wouldn't consider the others. Namely, the buyers looking for a work truck will more than likely only give the F-150 consideration due to the small bed sizes and the more stripped down, lower price offerings. For those Ford buyers that would option to the hilt with a Platinum package, they'll likely consider any of the three, but will be more tilted toward the Rivian or Hummer. Tesla did pretty well focusing on the higher-end buyers.
 

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The Hummer was the first to come up with frunk grille being part of the hood. Ford liked the idea apparently. Rivian is at a disadvantage in that it takes them longer to do things as a smaller company, just as was the case with Tesla (and still is). GM & Ford have the resources to get to production much faster. The Rivan was designed years ago, so some things could be a little outdated by the time they make it to production. Clearly, they didn't think of the hood potential, nor did Tesla on any of their cars. Cybertruck maybe?

I think Ford wins on most fronts for those seeking a truck for work and such. Rivian & Hummer win for those seeking something different and with more off-road prowess. Many of the buyers will be buyers that wouldn't consider the others. Namely, the buyers looking for a work truck will more than likely only give the F-150 consideration due to the small bed sizes and the more stripped down, lower price offerings. For those Ford buyers that would option to the hilt with a Platinum package, they'll likely consider any of the three, but will be more tilted toward the Rivian or Hummer. Tesla did pretty well focusing on the higher-end buyers.
I don't think any vehicles with frunks have had to worry about the height yet. You didn't have to lift anything above waist height to load it in. So it's just pickups and SUVs that have to solve this problem. Like you say, you can't get everything perfect the first go. Looking at the Rivian design it doesn't seem like it would be a simple design change, there's a crossbar at the top of the frunk that looks like it be fairly structural.
My issue is that I straddle the 2 demographics of wanting a work truck and an adventure truck. So now I need to drive myself crazy for the next few months about which is the better choice.
 

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Watched the Ford F-150 Lightning reveal. Certainly underwhelmed by it. Now "wow" moments or features.


Don't get me wrong, it will likely be a great truck and perfect for bringing typical truck buyers from gas to electric. Those that want a truck just for a truck and not looking for anything fancy.

Me personally, I love having a vehicle that has a "wow" factor to it. Be it, in the appearance or features of the vehicle.

Was never in love with the look of a Tesla, but they certainly had the "wow" factor down with the never before seen technology.

The Rivian's appearance is nothing outrageous by any means. I love the look of the proposed Nikola Truck that will never happen. But, I'm one that likes the Ford Raptor over the regular F-150. I love the bad ass look of the Hummer. But, the Rivian, while relatively low key, is still unique. The Ford is very plane jane. Looks like a very basic F-150. Was hoping they would either sport it up like the original Lighting or go the way of the Raptor with some aggressive styling cues. But, they chose the tried and true basics to appeal to actual pick-up truck buyers. And, they'll be highly successful.

But, I still think for most higher-end buyers, the Rivian has FAR greater appeal. It will offer owners something that is unique on the road, rather than just blending in with all the other vehicles that look exactly the same as the best selling vehicle on the planet. Yet, Rivian does it in a low key manner that doesn't scream, "LOOK AT ME, I'M DIFFERENT" as many EV's do.

Features of the F-150 that underwhelm include: 300 max range. Not bad, but certainly nothing special. The most pleasantly surprising announcement was that Ford will offer a drive assist feature, apparently competitive with Cadillac (Hummer) and Rivian's system. The interior, other than the screen, looks the same as any other Ford. I do like the vertical layout better, but not a fan of the big knob it shares with the "Mustang" Mach-E. Also, the ability to power your house is another nice bonus. But, is something that any EV can offer.....if they want to.

The Rivian still leads the race for me. I want an EV Truck and am considering the Hummer, Rivian and CyberTruck. Cybertruck is unlikely for me as I can't handle the looks and the interior is too plain for me, similar to a Model 3, which I personally was not a fan of. Much prefer the Model S/X interior, but even those are nothing special. Rivian looks more premium than any Tesla. The Hummer has a cool interior as well.

Ford didn't mention an adjustable air suspension, which all of the other three will have and I think is a big deal.

Rivian also wins out for its Tank Turn feature, automatic Tonneau cover, multi-function tailgate, tunnel, 400 miles in range. Plus, as was the case with Tesla in the beginning, I loved the customer service from a new company that really made you feel loved. Loaner cars, pick up your vehicle from you, personal touch service, etc. Those are gone from Tesla now, but expect Rivian will start off the way Tesla did and will be able to enjoy that for at least a couple of years.

And, as touched on above, when spending over $70,000 on a vehicle, which the Ford will be if you get it optioned up, I want something that not everyone on the road has. The Hummer will be low sales volume and will always standout. Rivian, while lower key, will be unique as well. The Cybertruck certainly is different too.

Those are my thoughts. I think the Ford will do well as it will appeal to blue collar buyers, but, I don't think its reveal today did anything to hurt the sales of the other three trucks. Ford didn't do much to brag about its off-road capability. It certainly doesn't look like it was built with that in mind. The other three certainly do.

My money is staying put on the Rivian and hoping like heck that they deliver as advertised somewhere close to their announced delivery dates.
And which battery system can deliver a reasonable endurance of full throttle acceleration efforts? Compare Tesla with Porsche systems: The Porsche can do something like 30 consecutive all-out accelerations without cooking anything. The Tesla can only do a few! This may not sound important, but if you have ever been in a real emergency and have to get there as fast as you can as an emergency vehicle, will the vehicle system shut you down to preserve the battery?
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
And which battery system can deliver a reasonable endurance of full throttle acceleration efforts? Compare Tesla with Porsche systems: The Porsche can do something like 30 consecutive all-out accelerations without cooking anything. The Tesla can only do a few! This may not sound important, but if you have ever been in a real emergency and have to get there as fast as you can as an emergency vehicle, will the vehicle system shut you down to preserve the battery?
This was true of early Tesla models. Probably mostly prompted by Porsche bragging about how it outperformed the Tesla in this respect, they went to work and newer models, this isn't really an issue. I would assume with technology today, all EV's will be able to duplicate performance. Hoping that Rivian is up to date in this respect as well.
 

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I think pre-orders for a 100$ reservation are basically meaningless so I don't know that anyone can or should draw any conclusions from any of those numbers.
Exactly. I always laugh when Tesla boasts that they have "a million" preorders for the Cybertruck. Well, duh, it only costs $100 to put down a deposit. At least half of those won't convert to actual sales. And it's not like having a preorder gets you a special place in line. I bought my Model 3 in 2018 without a preorder... if Tesla truly had "500k" preorders for that vehicle like they claimed, and preordering earned a priority in line, I shouldn't have been able to purchase one until 2020!

I fully expect that those who ordered the Launch Edition will be the first to receive their trucks. But once production of the non-Launch models start, it will become a free-for-all, regardless of our place in line. Just like Tesla.
 

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Some of us are luckier than others, if you are waiting for an R1S there is no decision to make.

Well I guess there is one, do I write the check or put my pen away... There is no other EV in this category to look at.
Hummer will come out with an SUV version of their truck soon–maybe a year? I wish it wasn't going to cost over $105 base.
 

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Ford lightning advantages:
1> Longer bed
2> Price
3> Vehicle to grid (house)
4> Large frunk

Rivian advantages:
1> 400 mile range
2> Air Shocks
3> tank turn
4> Vehicle to Vehicle charging, and perhaps Vehicle to house???
5> Easier to park.

I'm sure there are more to differentiate the vehicles, but these seemed to be the biggies that I could think of.

I have both on order, as well as the cybertruck (400,000th in line). I hope to have the lightning and RT1 by mid next year. fingers crossed.
 
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