[10SecondDecision]

Some of these points have been mentioned in another thread but to me, the first one is really big news. Surprised it was only revealed in such a casual manner during the Q&A:

1) RJ is driving an R1S with the Dual Motor configuration. Did anyone here know about a dual motor option before the pricing increase email?
2) RJ says that it wasn't the cancelations that made them reverse course. It was "because we have such a focus on our brand and the relationship we have with customers.". Ummmmmmm... 🤥
3) More than half the cancelations reinstated their orders (only more than half? wow, that was surprising)
4) They are getting a similar rate of orders AFTER the price increase compared to the pre-increase period. If true, this is fantastic news for the company.

I will state that I really want Rivian to succeed. I like many things about the company and their products. That said, the higher prices make me unsure if the demand from a smaller demographic (those who can afford such prices) would be enough to keep their Normal and Atlanta factories running, leading to a profitable company.

I am leaning towards liking the direction stated in the earnings call but skeptical on the long term viability. It also doesn't help that I have not been in or near any R1 vehicle yet. Holding further judgement until then.

 

[CommodoreAmiga]

Did anyone here know about a dual motor option before the pricing increase email?

Yes, they've previously said that dual motor was inevitable. I didn't know RJ's R1S had that configuration; but we knew that development was in the pipeline.

RJ says that it wasn't the cancelations that made them reverse course. It was "because we have such a focus on our brand and the relationship we have with customers.". Ummmmmmm... 🤥

I believe it. I think a lot of people were pissed and probably didn't intend to follow-through on their orders, but I imagine most didn't actually cancel, yet.

 

[10SecondDecision]

didn't intend to follow-through on their orders

That is a future cancelation waiting to happen so I count those with the already-canceled crowd in terms of its effect on the price reversal decision.

The world could be sliced a millions ways but I think these are the current customer groupings in relationship to Rivian's pricing fiasco:

1) Done with Rivian and not looking back. Order canceled, full stop.
2) Order canceled then reinstated. Will monitor based on future developments and a test drive.
3) Order canceled then reinstated. Very happy to get the vehicle at a 20% discount to new pricing.
4) Order wasn't canceled to give Rivian a chance to right the wrong. 100% would've canceled if increase not reversed.
5) Order wasn't canceled and proceeding cautiously but would drop them if they see other mishaps.
6) Strongly believes in the company and/or the product no matter what.

 

[BlackH20]

1) RJ is driving an R1S with the Dual Motor configuration. Did anyone here know about a dual motor option before the pricing increase email?
Funny, before he said he and the wife fight over who gets the R1T versus R1S (probably the only one on the road anywhere) yet they didn't tell one reviewer about the dual motor option? Not one person in the automotive press even knew about it; that's a bit weird to me.

2) RJ says that it wasn't the cancelations that made them reverse course. It was "because we have such a focus on our brand and the relationship we have with customers.". Ummmmmmm... 🤥. I am with you on this one, RJ, your company's CEO, yet your company jacks the price up and reverses it in 24 hours, leading to a ton of brand harm and just billions in company value. Somebody within those walls at the home office said "Let's jack up the price and have customer service send out the email; I say watch the exit door for the next 30-60 days.


3) More than half the cancelations reinstated their orders (only more than half? wow, that was surprising)
For not wanting to upset their customers, they must count every truck deposit and the percent back, but don't want to say how many they make in a day or week or even report that number (large avoid on the conference call).


4) They are getting a similar rate of orders AFTER the price increase compared to the pre-increase period. If true, this is fantastic news for the company. This is the largest whopper on the cal, it was March 10th yesterday, and over the last 10 days, those orders have been flying in as well as ever after we jacked up the price 20%, and are stock value has gone down from about $59 a share to $39.00 a share today. In other words, we are taking orders as we always have, we can't fill one, and our stock is decreasing at an alarming rate, yet we are so optimistic. WTF?

I will state that I really want Rivian to succeed. I like many things about the company and their products. That said, the higher prices make me unsure if the demand from a smaller demographic (those who can afford such prices) would be enough to keep their Normal and Atlanta factories running, leading to a profitable company.

I am leaning towards liking the direction stated in the earnings call but skeptical on the long term viability. It also doesn't help that I have not been in or near any R1 vehicle yet. Holding further judgement until then.

I had one Range Rover HSE too many in this life, had Suburbans, Hummer, Expedition, Excursion, and Lincoln Navigator (yes, my bones are getting older, and I go off-road less and less. Yes, I would like them to succeed; it seemed like an excellent value for the money, but with the 20% jump, to me, you are in that $100K SUV territory. Will they make it? I have no idea, and I don't think anyone does for sure. As stated on the conference call, that is a red flag for me when you can't get electrical harnesses out of Mexico. Good luck to us all through this rough ride; time will tell.

 

[Soumak]

Just like tesla, you have to start with higher prices and low volume initially until you get your feet under you. After that you can put more focus on mass market. I think the price increase is justified just not for existing holders. Infact they should have had their prices higher to start off. Once they get that 2nd plant in place and starts putting 10k trucks on the road per month then they can stay talking about lowering prices and different configurations.

 

[TessP100D]

Just like tesla, you have to start with higher prices and low volume initially until you get your feet under you. After that you can put more focus on mass market. I think the price increase is justified just not for existing holders. Infact they should have had their prices higher to start off. Once they get that 2nd plant in place and starts putting 10k trucks on the road per month then they can stay talking about lowering prices and different configurations.

Stop comparing Rivian to Tesla. Rivian is not Tesla

 

[Soumak]

Stop comparing Rivian to Tesla. Rivian is not Tesla

Clearly. But Tesla has been successful so people should follow a proven route

 

[Canyonero!]

Clearly. But Tesla has been successful so people should follow a proven route

By that logic they should be making ICE vehicles.

 

[Soumak]

By that logic they should be making ICE vehicles.

Not really. You have a clear proof that evs can be successful and make your company almost 30% profit margins. Ice cars are just shy of 10% profit margins.

 

[EaglesPDX]

You have a clear proof that evs can be successful and make your company almost 30% profit margins.

Only with $500M a year in ZEV credits. Tesla's books are very muddy. For example Service and Charging revenue are mixed and have exploded as Tesla's come out of warranty and turn out to to need as much maintenance as ICE vehicles. And charging is hugely profitable. Add in the $500M in ZEV credits.

How Rivian will handle service is going to be a point to consider when my price protected '24 Rivian shows up to be ordered. Rivian already beats Tesla with emails and phone calls that get answered though I'm told Tesla was like that when it was low volume also.

 

[BlackH20]

Only with $500M a year in ZEV credits. Tesla's books are very muddy. For example, Service and Charging revenue are mixed and have exploded as Tesla's come out of warranty and turn out to need as much maintenance as ICE vehicles. And charging is hugely profitable. Add in the $500M in ZEV credits.

How Rivian will handle service will be a point to consider when my price protected '24 Rivian shows up to be ordered. Rivian already beats Tesla with emails and phone calls that get answered though I'm told Tesla was like that when it was low volume also.

Probably, or they have one lousy cost assessment t and accounting department. Maybe some top tech guy told them they could sell at a loss and make it up in volume. Saw a Car and Driver article in the airport today with Rivian on the cover that said their test vehicle "had a litany of issues that needed to be addressed before any consumer would take delivery on it", including misaligned body panels, issues with the spare tire cover, that takes too much effort to shut and said everyone will be frustrated with the touchscreen. It was "lethargic to react and crashed completely numerous times where they had to shut the whole vehicle down and restart it." These are basics that someone should correct before giving to a publication for review. They also sang some praises for the vehicle; Reminds me of my old Range Rover HSE, the worst interface ever, I avoided using it, and it still went out four times. Sure everyone likes EV's 0-60 times of 3.3; that's what C&D got (but how many times are you going to snap your vertebrae after a few weeks? Also, are you going to be taking turns are is a vehicle for the weekend nights at the drag strip? I have had a Porsche 911 for years; sure, the acceleration is excellent, but I am not out to play Fast and Furious with a 6000 lb plus SUV that will take a while to stop if you peg 80-90 MPH or a nice curve. I ignore most coffee cult tailpipe cult that always wants to claim bragging rights during rush hour traffic. I'm starting to think waiting a year or so is the way to go here. Let them take care of all the issues they can and see if they will be viable to honor that 5-year warranty. You can't fix body panel alignments and doors that don't close correctly, are noisy, or leak. Maybe being anxious for delivery is not a good thing? The Range Rover, loved the look, everyone does, but usually, we were in some loaner entry-level Discovery for six weeks waiting on a part over and over. It was my fault; they had terrible ratings; I went against the research, thinking it would be great for Colorado, and since it is a heavy leased vehicle, people were abusing them and not being proactive with maintenance. It was near $100K; you can pick 2008 now for about $12K. Nobody wants a used one without a used overpriced car warranty. Ford could not turn them around, neither can Tata. Went back to the USA full-sized SUVs, same gas mileage, and a Ford F150 or Chevy Silverado underneath, dependable to 200K miles.

 

[EaglesPDX]

Saw a Car and Driver article in the airport today with Rivian on the cover that said their test vehicle "had a litany of issues that needed to be addressed before any consumer would take delivery on it", including misaligned body panels, issues with the spare tire cover, that takes too much effort to shut and said everyone will be frustrated with the touchscreen. It was "lethargic to react and crashed completely numerous times where they had to shut the whole vehicle down and restart it.

Tom Moloughney of Inside EV's had a very different view after hands on experience.

"I entered last week's R1T media drive with high expectations, and often that leads to disappointment on these first drive events. However, I didn't leave disappointed, I left in awe. The ultimate electric adventure vehicle has arrived, and it's called the Rivian R1T."

Rebooting screen and car...a Tesla specialty.

 

[sciencegeek]

"I entered last week's R1T media drive with high expectations, and often that leads to disappointment on these first drive events. However, I didn't leave disappointed, I left in awe. The ultimate electric adventure vehicle has arrived, and it's called the Rivian R1T."

I love it. I have not driven one but all the signals, without exception and with youtube, have been mind-blowingly positive about the product ... which matters more than anything.

 

[eherlihy]

I was on the fence about placing an R1S order, mostly because of the undefined lead time, in February. I was very close to placing a deposit when the whole price and configuration announcement happened. The price increase and the announcement of a major change in the design from 4 motors to 2, coupled with the timing - just before their earnings call, have made me more interested in Lucid's Air Pure. Yes, it is a very different vehicle, but it would suit my needs. I don't need another truck, but I do need an electric people hauler, and I will NOT buy a Tesla.

IMHO it would have been MUCH smarter for Rivian to honor all (then) current reservations and pricing, and incrementally increase their pricing on new reservations (a bump of $5K per month would have been acceptable). This would have further incentivized potential customers to make a reservation (and put down a deposit) in order to "lock in" their pricing. (I realize that pricing is not "final" until you have had a dialogue with Rivian about your specific vehicle). Telling existing reservation holders that their price of their reserved vehicle had just increased between $12K to $20K was just dumb. It scared people that were interested (such as myself) away from Rivian. This blunder makes me wonder about the long-term viability of the company.

 

[Cactus]

Only with $500M a year in ZEV credits. Tesla's books are very muddy. For example Service and Charging revenue are mixed and have exploded as Tesla's come out of warranty and turn out to to need as much maintenance as ICE vehicles. And charging is hugely profitable. Add in the $500M in ZEV credits.

How Rivian will handle service is going to be a point to consider when my price protected '24 Rivian shows up to be ordered. Rivian already beats Tesla with emails and phone calls that get answered though I'm told Tesla was like that when it was low volume also.

My 8 year old model S has been out of warranty for 3 years. During that time I replaced a 12V battery and two of the first gen auto-present handles. i Don’t remember what was the cost, but I also dont remember being too annoyed. Otherwise the model S has needed nothing but tires. Took my wife’s cayman in for a Battery replacement. They said it needed front brakes too. My bill was over $2300.
I’m expecting early adopter issues that Rivian will fix, but Lets hope Rivian’s vehicles are also dependable and require very little maintenance.

 

[O. horridus]

ALL cars made these days, even the worst ones, are far more reliable than 50 years ago. So the comparison is relative, but Tesla ranks very close to the bottom in terms of reliability. That doesn't mean that any specific Tesla is unreliable, and that doesn't mean Tesla makes bad cars (they are excellent in many ways...) - it just means that statistically, on the whole, Teslas are far less reliable than most cars. Consumer Reports ranks the Tesla brand as 27 out of 28 major brands for reliability, based on actual repair history.

If your particular Tesla has never needed repairs, then be thankful that you got an anti-lemon.

While we don't know how Rivian will eventually rank in terms of reliability, I think that service that comes to you, rather than the other way around, will make a huge difference for customer satisfaction. If my Toyota needs service (rarely), it's a major pain to get it fixed. But if my R1T ever needs service (hopefully rarely) it will be almost a pleasure to have them come to my house to repair the truck.

 

[EaglesPDX]

it will be almost a pleasure to have them come to my house to repair the truck.

That never proved a sustainable service model for Tesla as volume ramped up. Rivian could make that work early with four West coast (50% of first two years sales?) out of service centers in SEA, PDX, SFO, LAX could work but after that they'll have to have service where people can get to to it conveniently. Ford's 12% stake in Rivian probably presages service available at strategic Ford dealerships with high concentrations of F150EV's and MachE's. It may be Ford's investment is for that very reason to boost service work for dealerships.

In the off road test the only vehicle that beat the Rivian was Fords Raptor.

 

[O. horridus]

That never proved a sustainable service model for Tesla as volume ramped up. Rivian could make that work early with four West coast (50% of first two years sales?) out of service centers in SEA, PDX, SFO, LAX could work

I admit that my outlook is more positive because I'm near SEA and close to their service center here (which is next door to where my Toyota dealer used to be). My thought is that with Amazon HQ here, there will be some long-term Rivian support even if it is scarce in other places of the country. If the price hike hadn't been reversed, I would be a LOT more demanding of initial quality and continued service because that's what I would expect from a $100k+ vehicle. But since they've rolled that back, and since they are a new company, I will give them a chance to prove themselves.