[Jonny Lieberman]

I should probably file this one under, "No Duh," but I swapped out the stock Pirellis on my yellow R1T for some Toyo Open Country IIIs. Why? I was watching a friend drive my truck off-road and the sidewalls were deforming on really thorny rocks. I wanted something beefier.

The green R1T is the MotorTrend long term test vehicle (when it won Truck of the Year, Rivian gave us one for a year to review) on the stock Pirellis.

It wasn't the greatest comparison test in the world (we meant to go off-roading but Califronia rains had other ideas), but we charged both vehicles to 85% on the same charger, then drove 36 miles at the same speeds (between 35 and 75 mph) and the yellow truck burned 7 miles more (showed 7 miles less range) than the green truck. Pretty much as expected, but pretty disheartening all the same. I really like these Toyos (ride quality is much improved, plus off-road they're better).

Don't know if this means anything, but the green truck has about 20,000 miles on it, and I've put about 4,000 miles on these since I got them. The Toyos weigh 7 pounds more each.

Cheers,

-Jonny-

 

[EaglesPDX]

So what's on the green truck?

 

[Jonny Lieberman]

So what's on the green truck?

The stock Pirellis from the factory with about 20,000 miles on them.

 

[NorthernRivian]

That's what the TFL guys discovered as well with the Hummer EV, I think this is true for EVs overall.
Are you going going to swap back to the stock Pirellis eventually? Would love to see photos/videos of your R1T off-road.

 

[Jonny Lieberman]

That's what the TFL guys discovered as well with the Hummer EV, I think this is true for EVs overall.
Are you going going to swap back to the stock Pirellis eventually? Would love to see photos/videos of your R1T off-road.

I dunno. The truck rides so damn great on the Toyos, and they're quieter. Also, they look so much tougher. Some guy came up to me at lunch yesterday just to tell me how good the tires look! Also, I'd like to do a longer test.

Part of me is like, get a set of 21s with the street tires on different wheels and swap them. But that's a pain. The other part of me is like get an R1S on street tires for the wife, and keep this guy on these tires for me!

 

[HRCO.Rayman]

I dunno. The truck rides so damn great on the Toyos, and they're quieter. Also, they look so much tougher. Some guy came up to me at lunch yesterday just to tell me how good the tires look! Also, I'd like to do a longer test.

Part of me is like, get a set of 21s with the street tires on different wheels and swap them. But that's a pain. The other part of me is like get an R1S on street tires for the wife, and keep this guy on these tires for me!

I, too, am willing to sacrifice some range for a better ride/performance. (God knows I tried to love my Prius by sacrificing the range in favor of better tires 😁)

My only question is how the BFG KO2 tires would compare to Toyos. I had the KO2s on my last heavy truck (Ram 3500) and they were amazing in terms of snow traction as well as ride comfort/noise over the previous BFG and Michelin all-seasons I had on that truck.

 

[Jonny Lieberman]

I, too, am willing to sacrifice some range for a better ride/performance. (God knows I tried to love my Prius by sacrificing the range in favor of better tires 😁)

My only question is how the BFG KO2 tires would compare to Toyos. I had the KO2s on my last heavy truck (Ram 3500) and they were amazing in terms of snow traction as well as ride comfort/noise over the previous BFG and Michelin all-seasons I had on that truck.

y friend who advised me -- Sean Holman, former Editor-in-Chief of 4Wheeler, felt that KO2s were A) too heavy B) too severe for what I had in mind

 

[Ferdball]

I have the stock 21's and am looking for AT's as well. I've settled on the Wildpeaks, but am having a hard time finding suitable 20" wheels. Which wheels did you go with?

 

[sportute]

Thanks for the update, Jonny.

Assuming estimated factory AT range of 275 miles, the negative impact on range putting in the Revo is a 55 mile reduction, or updated range of 220 miles. This is massive. I’m not sure if there’s a range reduction impact of 85% charge on a 20k mi battery vs 7k mi.

The factory tires are developed for the vehicle, and include an EV rating which too range and rolling resistance performance into consideration. In doing this, there are trade offs of course in the tire, which include certain off roading conditions.

However, I’m sure there would be some turnoff for an AT option if Rivian posted the AT option vehicle to only get 220 miles of range. Personally, I’d rather have an off road spec that I can do the majority of the trail, with an extra 55 miles of range in my pocket to stretch it to home or a charging station.

 

[Adam R1T LE]

Try the Patagonia
Impressive off-road on rocks, mud, snow (not so much) but especially on sand, and dirt.
Equal to a BFG K02 (in my humble, which I still prefer) except maybe for snow, where I think the K02 is very good, but you really need a full snow tire on the R1 because it's heavy.
I think the K02 is pretty good for mi/kWh, but I haven't done any useful testing.
Right now I have Nokian LT3 full snows on and mi/kWh is great on the freeway, at least as good as the factory Pirellis.
Choose whichever tread performance suits, but my experience is with the MT02
Durable, but sticky, aggressive mud-clearing tread voids, yet quiet on the road at speed, stays in balance.
Not an on-road performance tire, but pound it up to 50 psi and it's stable. They also work right down to 12-14 psi if you want to play around below 1 mi/kWh. : )

Search - Milestar Tires

milestartires.com

 

[RITVT]

Only drawback with LT3 Hakkas is also some additional weight / tire. You can't even compare them to AT's. AT's are terrible in snow compared to a winter-rated tire like the Hakka. When I mounted my LT3's, it was right around the time temps dropped and when we also rec'd the new SW update with some efficiency enhancements. Even with more rotational weight, the range on the LT3's has been excellent, and as noted above they are quiet, track well, and perform great on the HWY. Def the best snow tire on the market. If there were a slightly lighter version of the 20' Hakka LT3 specifically designed for Rivian, it would imagine that it would be far more efficient than the Pirelli's simply based on tread design alone.

 

[Adam R1T LE]

Only drawback with LT3 Hakkas is also some additional weight / tire. You can't even compare them to AT's. AT's are terrible in snow compared to a winter-rated tire like the Hakka.

There is a lighter 275/65R20 from Nokian that has the same tread compound and pattern as the LT3. Some have used it. It has a few hundred pounds less load rating. I don't think it's a problem – they're a very tough tire, you just wouldn't want tow heavy (which is practically impossible, anyway.)
The K02 is very good in snow. I'd trust the LT3 to go further and colder, but the K02 doesn't quit. I have them on an F-150 and don't bother with snow tires on that vehicle. When things get slow and deep beyond what the Hakkas could hack, the F-150 has 4 chains … : )

 

[Jonny Lieberman]

I have the stock 21's and am looking for AT's as well. I've settled on the Wildpeaks, but am having a hard time finding suitable 20" wheels. Which wheels did you go with?

The 20s that came on my truck.

 

[camaroz1985]

There is a lighter 275/65R20 from Nokian that has the same tread compound and pattern as the LT3. Some have used it. It has a few hundred pounds less load rating. I don't think it's a problem – they're a very tough tire, you just wouldn't want tow heavy (which is practically impossible, anyway.)
The K02 is very good in snow. I'd trust the LT3 to go further and colder, but the K02 doesn't quit. I have them on an F-150 and don't bother with snow tires on that vehicle. When things get slow and deep beyond what the Hakkas could hack, the F-150 has 4 chains … : )

Take published tire weights with a grain of salt, especially Nokian. I thought I was onto a "superleggera" AT setup with the Outpost AT in 275/60R20. They were listed at 33 lbs, but actually weighed 45 lbs, like most of the other AT tires that size.

 

[Adam R1T LE]

Take published tire weights with a grain of salt, especially Nokian. I thought I was onto a "superleggera" AT setup with the Outpost AT in 275/60R20. They were listed at 33 lbs, but actually weighed 45 lbs, like most of the other AT tires that size.

33lbs claimed vs 45lbs actual is the difference between an SUV tire and an light truck tire.
I have to wonder how much better the range could be with 12lbs per tire or 50lbs drivetrain rotating mass.

 

[O. horridus]

Assuming estimated factory AT range of 275 miles

It's 290 actually.

Factory tires are always a compromise, and for the manufacturer it is important to choose a tire that maximizes range because the EPA numbers are calculated with the OEM tires. That means it's going to be hard to find a tire that has better range than the OEM. Conversely, it's going to be relatively easy to find a tire that improves wet traction, or dry traction, or snow traction, or mud traction, etc, because all those specialized needs do compromise range and/or wear compared to the OEM.

The OEM tires are good tires, but if you frequently need to drive in other-than-average conditions you might find it useful to get a set of tires optimized for those conditions. Remember that all tires have tradeoffs, so for example your snow tires are going to be great in snow but worse than the OEM on dry roads, etc.

 

[HRCO.Rayman]

Take published tire weights with a grain of salt, especially Nokian. I thought I was onto a "superleggera" AT setup with the Outpost AT in 275/60R20. They were listed at 33 lbs, but actually weighed 45 lbs, like most of the other AT tires that size.

Thanks for the heads-up. I was totally planning on the 275/60R20 route to save on both weight and consumption since that size is closer to the more efficient 21 inch OE.

Per TireRack numbers, there seems to be a significant weight difference based on the service description of the same tires.

See the numbers I pulled from the tirerack below (assuming they are sourced from the manufacturers and semi accurate).

In terms of weight, the best option seems to be the Toyo ATs in 275/60R20 with service desc 115T, even better than the Pirelli tires that come with the truck by 6 lbs/tire.


Toyo Open Country A/T III in 275/65R20 weigh 55 lbs
BFG T/A KO2s in 275/65R20 weigh 57 lbs
Pirelli Scorpion All Terrain Plus 116H weigh 48 lbs
Pirelli Scorpion All Terrain Plus 126/123S weigh 57 lbs

Toyo Open Country A/T III 123/120T in 275/60R20 weigh 52 lbs
Toyo Open Country A/T III 115T in 275/60R20 weigh 42 lbs
BFG T/A KO2s in 275/60R20 weigh 55 lbs

 

[sportute]

It's 290 actually.

LOL Really? Actually Actually, it's 289 for the R1T with Large Pack, 20" AT...... I said assuming estimated range of 275.

Factory tires are always a compromise, and for the manufacturer it is important to choose a tire that maximizes range because the EPA numbers are calculated with the OEM tires. That means it's going to be hard to find a tire that has better range than the OEM. Conversely, it's going to be relatively easy to find a tire that improves wet traction, or dry traction, or snow traction, or mud traction, etc, because all those specialized needs do compromise range and/or wear compared to the OEM.

The OEM tires are good tires, but if you frequently need to drive in other-than-average conditions you might find it useful to get a set of tires optimized for those conditions. Remember that all tires have tradeoffs, so for example your snow tires are going to be great in snow but worse than the OEM on dry roads, etc.

Correct. As I stated, there are tradeoffs of a developed OEM tire vs. non, and even more so dedicated purpose tires. It's the OEM's job with its supplier to find and develop the balanced performance, which is rarely considered in the replacement spec tire. You'll often find improvements in certain performance of a non-OE tire, but could be surprised on the negative tradeoffs to the vehicle, which sometimes only come out in more controlled test conditions.

 

[sportute]

Thanks for the heads-up. I was totally planning on the 275/60R20 route to save on both weight and consumption since that size is closer to the more efficient 21 inch OE.

Per TireRack numbers, there seems to be a significant weight difference based on the service description of the same tires.

See the numbers I pulled from the tirerack below (assuming they are sourced from the manufacturers and semi accurate).

In terms of weight, the best option seems to be the Toyo ATs in 275/60R20 with service desc 115T, even better than the Pirelli tires that come with the truck by 6 lbs/tire.


Toyo Open Country A/T III in 275/65R20 weigh 55 lbs
BFG T/A KO2s in 275/65R20 weigh 57 lbs
Pirelli Scorpion All Terrain Plus 116H weigh 48 lbs
Pirelli Scorpion All Terrain Plus 126/123S weigh 57 lbs

Toyo Open Country A/T III 123/120T in 275/60R20 weigh 52 lbs
Toyo Open Country A/T III 115T in 275/60R20 weigh 42 lbs
BFG T/A KO2s in 275/60R20 weigh 55 lbs

just as a note, be careful with more broad assumptions on performance improvements going an aspect ratio smaller or adjusted weight. There are many other aspects of tire design that influence rolling resistance past variances in weight and rolling diameter. You also lose a bit of overall footprint size by reducing the aspect ratio, as the rolling circumference reduces. You lose a bit of traction apples to apples. It's like using a 29" MTB wheel/tire combo vs. a 27.5", assuming same tread pattern and width.

 

[mike813]

Great discussion. Thanks for sharing the details Jonny.

Sharing my perspective for those who care, feel free to ignore for those who don't.

I don't really care toooo much about range. Except for when I do. And for the 3 times a year when I do care about range I'm stopping at Walmarts every two hours anyway (pic below from our first road trip to take our kids to see snow). I "met" Jonny and Holman during the Rivian drive across America and I've been reading everything these two fine gentlemen post on the socials since then. My R1S#1 has the 22s, and they're surprisingly not bad. My R1S#2 is currently configured for 20s, but after a month and 3k miles on these 22s I may end up going with the 22s. I usually have a dozer close when I'm offroad anyway (or at least friends with F-250s who would LOVE to pull this plug-in truck out of a tight spot and post photos on the net), and no rockcrawling in north Florida for me. However, I LOVE the look and performance of BFG K02s and have had those on my last 3 vehicles before the R1S. I initially thought I would 100% for sure find something AT-like for the 22s, and I still might, but then again these Pirellis are also doing pretty great. And for 98% of my driving which is on the road, it sure is nice to have the performance and grip. We'll see. I'll still read every tire post on all the Rivian forums. First world problems.